Srl Goat

[wpink1]

Wmute...You have so many things twisted to TRY to prove a false and unsubstaintiated point, that it is hilarious!

Hagler was 32 when they fought and turning 33 in a month
Hagler had not lost in 10 years when they fought and was in his 15th year as a pro

1. 32 is 32...How weak is it to point out TURNING 33 IN A MONTH...You have to get better than that. He was 32, and since when do we say 32 is old, especially for a fighter that had SHOWN NO DECLINE! This is just made up haterism by peopel that always want to deminish Ray leonard.

He was well rested having fought on average 1 fight every 10 months over the past 3 years. since when is that considered a good thing, fighters are less sharp when they fight less often, so was Hagler

2. Hmmm I tend to agree that fighters are less sharp when fighting less often. I will agree there, Notice I never said he was sharper, I said he was well rested. And to knock out two birds with one stone..He fought many times since 82, Ray fought once. Hmmm tell me who negatively impacted the most with that 5 year lay off, Hagler or Leonard Hmmm

He had just beaten the best 3 fighters he had ever had to face, and all where by ko....vs earlier in his career he had a draw with Antefermo, close call with Duran, some losses......Hmmmm Based on what happened in the ring, doesnt look like he slipped. It is well known that after the fight with Antuofermo and even moreso later on Hagler was not content with decision. Also, it is entirely debatable that those are the 3 best fighters he faced. Hamsho better than Duran? none of the 70s division was better at 160 than Mugabi?

3. What is your point here...SO WHAT HAGLER WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE DECISION. What does that have to do with his performance. My point was His performance had not dropped off based on what we saw in the ring. Yes Hearns at 160, Mugabi, and hamsho were better than anyone at 160 than Hagler faced before. Your response is so weak that it is hilarious. Duran at 154 was stopped in 2 rounds...completley ko'd by hearns...and beaten by Benitez, was an original lightweight was clearly not Peak in age or Weight, and you want to say he was one of the best opponents at 160..Come on you need to learn your stuff.

Since you said "none of the 70's better than Mugabi etc..." I ask you to Name them then, not just toss stones....Name 3 fighters from the 70's better than the 3 I have listed...

Mugabie was undefeated 25-0 with 25 ko's I believe. Hagler was always able to be hit. Hagler stopped mugabi in a brutal fight, where he was hit yes, but he was showing the most effective aggression and wore Mugabi down. Hagler was never a Mayweather making peopel miss, he ws known for having a great chin. I ask did he ever go down or was seriously hurt in the fights leading up to Leonard?

Hagler was never hurt in his entire career, so the fact that he was not hurt before fighting Leonard doesnt mean much. If anything Hearns landing that right hand in round 1 is the most hurt you will ever see Hagler.

Earlier on he would not get hit as much as he did in the Hearns and Mugabi fight (In fact I would say that the Mugabi fight was like 4-5 of his 70s fights in terms of punishment absorbed). In fact he used to box a lot more than he did later on. With age you lose speed and reflexes, long before power and chin

4 The reason I pointed out Hagler was not hurt before is relevant. It is haters that continue to try to say hagler dropped off. I point out he won all his recent fights leading up to Leonard by Ko, had no slippage and was never hurt...Where is the slippage?

Maybe you did not see the first Vito fight, or any that he lost. Hmmm I sugget you look at these before you point out that he never took that type of punishement.

You point out something that I have been trying to educate many on here for a long time that you lose reflexes timing and speed with age. What do you think Leonard lost with Age and inactivity? If Ray was out for 5 years..how in the hell does he benefit from fighting a active fighter.

Ray was off for 5 years with only 1 fight at jr middle last time vs a journeyman and was dropped. So, by your coin he was well rested

How do you know Ray could not make 147. Regardless of that, what is your point. People say Duran moved up from 135 and credit him for the jump. Hearns moved up and is credited, Mayweather moved up and is credited..Hmmm however you make a classic haterism excuse for Ray moving up. Fact is he retired as the Welterweight champion, and came back and beat Hagler at middleweight..That is 2 weight classes.

12 rounds was the liimit that hagler had fought vs Hearns, and mugabi and hamsho.... just Hearns and Mugabi and 15 rounders were still sanctioned by then

Your correct the Hamsho fight was a scheduled 15 rounder, but lasted only 3 rounds. However hearns, Mugabi, Roldan 3 of his last 4 fights were scheduled 12 rounders. To further drive home the point that people like yourself simply hate...

Tyson fought Trevor berbick in 1986 it was a twelve rounder. Subsequently every fight he had after that was for 12 rounds.

Chavez all his fights for titles in the 80's where for 12 rounds...

I could go on and on...the fact is 12 rounds when Ray fought Hagler was the norm. Yes some could be 15, but the majority of the fights was 12 rounds. So those haters that whine and offer excuse after excuse for him beating hagler...Hmmm they need to check the facts...

[warp1432]

where did you get the idea from? you were also asking when i was asking about linares.

Slicksouthpaw16 called Wpink, Wmute when they were debating in a thread. Wpink didn't even accknowledge that he wasn't you so I figured you guys were the same people. Especially since you hadn't been posting for a while.

[wpink1]

Slicksouthpaw16 called Wpink, Wmute when they were debating in a thread. Wpink didn't even accknowledge that he wasn't you so I figured you guys were the same people. Especially since you hadn't been posting for a while.

Warp1432....I never saw that post where I was referred to as someone else..Seems very childish to me. I am Wpink1. Very proud of my stance and positions on the topics raised. What person who say they are someone else.

[warp1432]

Warp1432....I never saw that post where I was referred to as someone else..Seems very childish to me. I am Wpink1. Very proud of my stance and positions on the topics raised. What person who say they are someone else.

Nah it was Slicksouthpaw16 who said it, but you can't blame him. There are a lot of accounts on this site belonging to the same people. You and Wmute have pretty similiar posting styles even though he disagrees with you here. Wmute was gone for a while, it's easy to get mixed up.

[TheGreatA]

1. 32 is 32...How weak is it to point out TURNING 33 IN A MONTH...You have to get better than that. He was 32, and since when do we say 32 is old, especially for a fighter that had SHOWN NO DECLINE! This is just made up haterism by peopel that always want to deminish Ray leonard.

I don't think it's 'hating', a lot of people had noticed Hagler's decline (including Leonard himself). Obviously a great win for Leonard but it was a fight that happened a little too late.


Hearns comments on Hagler - Leonard.

For some, such as Shelly Finkel , the manager of WBA welterweight champ Mark Breland , the odds are out of whack. "I think Hagler has slipped tremendously," Finkel says. "He got hit plenty by Mugabi. If Ray has his legs under him, I don't think Hagler has a chance."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...03/1/index.htm

"Marvin was a guy I watched religiously, so I knew he'd fought two tough fights against Hearns and Duran and I knew he was getting older," Leonard said. "Then against John Mugabi I could see that the fights were taking their toll, he was slowing down. I was sitting ringside next to the actor Michael J. Fox, drinking a few beers and I told him, 'I can beat this guy.' He looked at me like I was crazy and said, 'Ray, have another beer.'"

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/box...ory?id=3546644

[j.razor]

Floyd Mayweather Jr. i have never seen a defense like his in ANY old or recent fights, with the accuracy of his punches landing...

[C.Y.]

i disagree in an era where people had long careers Leonard fought 40 times. he ducked Hagler and only fought him when he was past his peak after watching his performance with Mugabi. Leonard wasnt a very active fighter at his peak i give him credit for his notable victories but he isnt the goat and doesnt make my p4p top 5 of all time

^^^^^^
yes

[wmute]

I am not twisting anything, wheres suggesting that 87 Hagler did not slip since 1980 requires some serious reality bending.

1. Whatever... 32yo and 65 fights is not prime, for anyone. Why would Hagler be different? And he DID show decline. Only a Leonard lover would not see it, Leonard himself did.

2. To me both Leonard and Hagler were damaged by their layoff, I foind the notion of ”well rested“ ridiculous and out of line with how boxing works. If you did not mention that, I would not have suggested anything different than waht you are saying now. Choose reasonable arguments, if you look for reasonable answers

3a) I meant “not happy with the decision”, in all of his fights. he started going for KOs much more than before the “draw”. Don't tell me you didnt notice...

3b) What makes you think I am talking about Duran??? where did I say he was one of his best opponents at 160

3c) You are putting words I did not say in my mouth. Never said there are 3 fighters better than those 3. I just said some of the 70 middleweights were better than Mugabi (who never did anything at 160 and never beat any elite at 154 either). This is enough to say that those are not his best 3 opponents. you want one name: Benny Briscoe. I would also say Roldan and Briscoe were both better than Hamsho (Different styles though), but that's my opinion.

4a) I saw both Antuofermo fights, and Hagler certainly never took that kind of punishment. First because most of his early fights were much more tactical in the first half than his later fights, secondly because he was always more focused on defense earlier on in his career, also because he had better reflexes when he was younger (like EVERY fighter on earth).

4b) Again he won those fight by stoppage, also because he started looking for stoppages, which he didnt do nearly as much earlier on.

4c) LOL at the idea that a 31 year old Leonard could make a weight he did not make in 5 years. I guess Floyd Mayweather could make 135 tomorrow. Hell why not 130... Also Hagler was not a big middleweight, so all credit for Leonard for beating the shorter, slightly heavier champion, who was still a GREAT (but slipping) fighter, but this is not young Robinson fighting middleweights or later on moving up to fight Maxim. We are talking about two men of very similar size, not Duran and Barkley.

5) 15 rounders were still scheduled by wba and ibf (see Holyfield-Qawi later that year) choosing for which of Hagler's 3 belts to fight for was part of the stipulation, so was the ring size. Leonard was a smart man and did what he had to do to win, IN and OUT of the ring. (Hagler not as much, as testified by his selling everything at the negotiating table, and also by his ridiculous game plan for the first 4 rounds)

I think that Hagler not slipping and the negotiations being irrelevant are very weak points to make, but if you have good points to make, I am happy to go on reading them.

Wmute...You have so many things twisted to TRY to prove a false and unsubstaintiated point, that it is hilarious!




1. 32 is 32...How weak is it to point out TURNING 33 IN A MONTH...You have to get better than that. He was 32, and since when do we say 32 is old, especially for a fighter that had SHOWN NO DECLINE! This is just made up haterism by peopel that always want to deminish Ray leonard.



2. Hmmm I tend to agree that fighters are less sharp when fighting less often. I will agree there, Notice I never said he was sharper, I said he was well rested. And to knock out two birds with one stone..He fought many times since 82, Ray fought once. Hmmm tell me who negatively impacted the most with that 5 year lay off, Hagler or Leonard Hmmm



3. What is your point here...SO WHAT HAGLER WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE DECISION. What does that have to do with his performance. My point was His performance had not dropped off based on what we saw in the ring. Yes Hearns at 160, Mugabi, and hamsho were better than anyone at 160 than Hagler faced before. Your response is so weak that it is hilarious. Duran at 154 was stopped in 2 rounds...completley ko'd by hearns...and beaten by Benitez, was an original lightweight was clearly not Peak in age or Weight, and you want to say he was one of the best opponents at 160..Come on you need to learn your stuff.

Since you said "none of the 70's better than Mugabi etc..." I ask you to Name them then, not just toss stones....Name 3 fighters from the 70's better than the 3 I have listed...




4 The reason I pointed out Hagler was not hurt before is relevant. It is haters that continue to try to say hagler dropped off. I point out he won all his recent fights leading up to Leonard by Ko, had no slippage and was never hurt...Where is the slippage?

Maybe you did not see the first Vito fight, or any that he lost. Hmmm I sugget you look at these before you point out that he never took that type of punishement.

You point out something that I have been trying to educate many on here for a long time that you lose reflexes timing and speed with age. What do you think Leonard lost with Age and inactivity? If Ray was out for 5 years..how in the hell does he benefit from fighting a active fighter.


How do you know Ray could not make 147. Regardless of that, what is your point. People say Duran moved up from 135 and credit him for the jump. Hearns moved up and is credited, Mayweather moved up and is credited..Hmmm however you make a classic haterism excuse for Ray moving up. Fact is he retired as the Welterweight champion, and came back and beat Hagler at middleweight..That is 2 weight classes.





Your correct the Hamsho fight was a scheduled 15 rounder, but lasted only 3 rounds. However hearns, Mugabi, Roldan 3 of his last 4 fights were scheduled 12 rounders. To further drive home the point that people like yourself simply hate...

Tyson fought Trevor berbick in 1986 it was a twelve rounder. Subsequently every fight he had after that was for 12 rounds.

Chavez all his fights for titles in the 80's where for 12 rounds...

I could go on and on...the fact is 12 rounds when Ray fought Hagler was the norm. Yes some could be 15, but the majority of the fights was 12 rounds. So those haters that whine and offer excuse after excuse for him beating hagler...Hmmm they need to check the facts...

[wpink1]

Wmute, and the Machine.

Questions that you will not answer. You want to run on Hyperbola and theory. I run on Fact.

1. Based on what fight(s) did hagler show signs of slipping. Did he lose any fights. Was he in jeapordy of losing any fights. How about did any go the distance since 83?

2. Leonard said Mugabi outboxed him as did Duran, and he knew Mugabie was not the fighter he was.

3. Also Leonard and other may have observed that Hagler SLOWED, a bit. However, hagerl was not a leonard, jones, mayweather, Ali. He was not solely based on speed. I ask you this, Duran was 73 fights into his career when he moved up and fought what many call the best fight of his career. He was slower at Welter, but for that fight he was better. Leoanrd when he first came into boxing from the olympics was much faster his first 15 fights than he was later on. He learned to put leverage on his punches, and traded off speed with more power. Dundee wanted him to be more professional than Amateur. My point with this is Slower does not mean slippage. It could for a fighter that is based solely on speed and instincts, but hagler was not.

Roy jones suffered much more than Hagler did at a later age (key point). He suffered more because he was solely on instinct, and did not have the jaw Hagler did. His instinct had to be there. Same with Leonard, who by the way was not at his peak when he fought hagler. In fact the leonard that fought hagler would not have beaten the other top Middles in Nunn, and McCallum THAT NIGHT. However he had the style to beat hagler any day, any time.

Hagler struggle with Antefermo the 1st time, and with Duran who boxed him and made him lead. You really think Duran at 160 is a better boxer than a prime Leonard, who had his legs and speed and instinct, and that is exaclty what he had lost MOST OF by the time he came back and fought HAGLER. He was winded by round 6. Look at the 1st Duran fight, where he fought toe to toe, punch after punch for 15 rounds. This was not the same leoanrd. So if anyone noticeably slipped the most in those 5 years he was off, it was Leoanrd.

4. What else did Ray win in negotiations.. I already totally disproved your weak points about slippage and 12 rounds vs 15 rounds. You say there were some (minority of fights in 87) that went 15 rounds, BUT HOW IS IT RAY LEONARD ALONE OUT OF ALL THE FIGHTS FROM LIGHTWEIGHT TO HEAVYWEIGHT THAT WERE 12 ROUNDERS...RAY LEONARD ALONE IS GETTING CONCESSIONS....WOW!

On one hand people slam Ray for only having 40 fights as if it was not enough, then on he other hand you say 60 is shot! So I guess somewhere between 41-59 is optimal. Give me break. You look for signs, which hagler did not show. He got hit earlier in his fights, not just vs Mugabi. You make an excuse for him, hmmmm he elected to box earlier in his career vs go for the ko, and later he went for a ko...Wow....that is weak. The facts is he stopped every challenger for his title except for 1, and that was in 83 vs Duran a lightweight who moved up, and had a draw in 79. However, in the so called period of slippage he ko'd Hearns, Hamsho, and Mugabi. Wow!!! If that is slippage then everyone needs to slip

Yes I will concur Ray did negotiate a baseball field of a ring. However If hagler had learned to cut off a ring, vs follow it would not have mattered. That night all he had to do was pressure Ray from the outset. But he didn't, he gave up the 1st 4 rounds, and thus the fight.

[marciano1952]

Floyd Mayweather Jr. i have never seen a defense like his in ANY old or recent fights, with the accuracy of his punches landing...

youv never seen Willie Pep?