Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

[Thunder Lips]

marciano only beat charles cos he was past it!!!

the 3rd walcot fight proved that!!! when he EVENTUALY managed to defeat charles with that crushing left hook!! charles looks shot as hell all the way throught that fight!! his timing was awful by then!! and marciano fought him well after that!!

I've actually took a strong liking to Ezzard Charles the heavyweight and while he was showing wear and tear, he was far from past it after the Walcott fight and when he fought Marciano.

Before Walcott caught him with the mother of all sneaky counters, Charles had a fairly dominating lead on two cards; winning all but one round. Charles squeezed three fights inbetween the 4th fight with Walcott; stopping tough contender Rex Layne and beating Joe Maxim. Their 4th fight was also said to be very close with a disputed decision. Even though he was not going to get another title shot against Walcott, he fought an incredible 14 times against topcompetition in a year in a half time, winning all but three fights; one loss being a close SD with Harold Johnson.

Most expected Marciano to destroy Charles in their first meeting. Instead he showed up at his best weight as heavy and did this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4_qP...watch_response

Charles vs. Marciano I early rounds. He looks pretty sharp to me.

http://mefeedia.com/entry/ezzard-cha...-1951/9793489/

To compare, Heavyweight Champion Charles spoiling Joe Louis' comeback.


Charles didn't look so good in the second Rocky fight, he looked intimidated and didn't insert himself enough to stop the swarming. The fight really wasn't nearly as competitive as myth has made it. Sorry but outside of this fight, I'm not convinced Charles was "past it" during their first fight and most sports writers and fans at the time would agree that he was greatly underestimated.


"In their first fight, last June 17, Rocky was expected to dispose of Ez by a knockout, but the latter surprised the boxing world by waging a willing, game fight that went the limit before Rocky got the unanimous decision."
-Ny Times

[Rafael Benitez]

Are you ****ing pissed? Charles was a shot fighter and was never competitive at heavyweight.

[Thunder Lips]

I agree 100%. He was definitely great but people do overrate him and say things like he had underrated defense ect and would beat Ali. He was great for his time and i enjoy watching his fights. I also like him as a person.

Marciano's defense is underrated in that he's developed a reputation for walking through power shots without regard and was very easy to hit. This seems to be true when he was coming up but it doesn't seem a very accurate description of his years as a Contender and Champion; especially when one considers he was constantly facing quick accurate punchers like Matthews, Walcott, Charles, Moore, LaStarza, and even old Joe Louis who was still tough on the inside. Even than, these guys had some trouble finding him consistently and commented how deceptively hard he was to hit.

Yes, though I said I would favor Ali; durable swarmers with a strong workrate were a real pain for him. This is a constant throughout his entire career from the limited Chuvalo to Fraizer to the awkward Norton. I really fail to see how Marciano is such a huge mismatch against him, he would have a chance and regardless the outcome the fight would not be a piece of cake for Ali as you implied.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=h2ut_2v4npU

Ali wins most of the rounds but takes a ton of punishment to the body that left him hospitialized after the fight.

[Thunder Lips]

Are you ****ing pissed? Charles was a shot fighter and was never competitive at heavyweight.

You weren't aware Marciano rematched Walcott, why am I not surprised that you don't know Charles was a successful Heavyweight Champion?

[StarshipTrooper]

Let's face it; Rafael has let slip his REAL reason for downing Marciano: Marciano was white. In his narrow mind honky and good fighter don't belong in the same sentence. What a joke! The people who scream race the loudest, like Rafael, are usually the biggest bigots out there. Rafael proves it with every post. Never rank a white guy on the ATG Heavyweight list or Rafael will blow a gasket (among other things). I wonder how he'd like it if someone started slamming black fighters because they're black? Or Mexican fighters because they're Mexican? I wonder how he'd handle someone doing to his prefered ethnic group the same way he's doing whites? I got a news flash for you Rafael: Whites are a sizable percentage of the world's population, they aren't going anywhere and your bigotry isn't going to change that.

Poet

[Rafael Benitez]

You weren't aware Marciano rematched Walcott, why am I not surprised that you don't know Charles was a successful Heavyweight Champion?

I am fully aware he fought him again the FOLLOWING year when the old man was probably on a zimmerframe! Even then he cheated in that fight too and I was referring to the fact that he avoided Arnold Cream who said he would only fight again to thrash that bum. Anyway, who the **** was Arnold Cream.

You really are joking about the second part. We already agreed the era was weak, so pay attention! He beat nobodies, but I guess you probably do rate bums like Maxim, Louis shadow and Walcott. He was not in his prime at heavyweight as he was at light heavy. It is widely acknowledged he was best at the lower weight and his best days were there. In any case he was an ol man past his best and had a few too many wars before he went into that fight. He had a dozen or so defeats by then and was torn.

I don't think you actually watched his fights either like other people here and are probably going on paper records and other distortions of these fighters. Unlike many peopl here who specualte after reading wikipedia and boxrec, I have collected these guys fights and seen quite a bit. He was **** by then. Walcott was **** when he was born. And Marciano looked **** aganst them two. The Brocton bul****ter is not even in the same league as the top 20 heavyeight ATG's. I woul even give Sam Peter a chance, and this time I ain't even taking the piss like I was with the excellent Clinton Woods!

[Rafael Benitez]

Let's face it; Rafael has let slip his REAL reason for downing Marciano: Marciano was white. In his narrow mind honky and good fighter don't belong in the same sentence. What a joke! The people who scream race the loudest, like Rafael, are usually the biggest bigots out there. Rafael proves it with every post. Never rank a white guy on the ATG Heavyweight list or Rafael will blow a gasket (among other things). I wonder how he'd like it if someone started slamming black fighters because they're black? Or Mexican fighters because they're Mexican? I wonder how he'd handle someone doing to his prefered ethnic group the same way he's doing whites? I got a news flash for you Rafael: Whites are a sizable percentage of the world's population, they aren't going anywhere and your bigotry isn't going to change that.

Poet

I stopped reading after the first few lines. That is not my reason for ripping him, as I have already said he ain't nowhere near as good as KLIT! That is a real white heavy if you want one to br proud of. i also mentioned Dempsey I think. So basically he ain;t even the best there! You need some comprehension lessons. I said he is overrated because he was white at a hostile time when white people actually believed they were better and couldn't have Walcott contaminating Rocky's public toilets even! The race issue is the truth on why he is so overrated by his contemporaires and oldies who helped continue the perpetuation of the myth.

Why have I not started a thread about Dempsey? He too would be too small by todays standards, but unlike the Brockton Bull****ter I do actually rate him as an athlete. The thing about Marciano is that I'm not saying he was good but overrated. I am not saying he is completely **** either. I am saying he wasn't far off! LOL. Don't smash your room up white boy, you know it is the truth!

I got a newsflash for you mate: The pics in my avatar and my sig are of white people (also of continental descent)! Your theory smashed to peices right there and then in one sentence! I have said in the lounge for a joke that anglo saxon birds are ugly and smell, but followed it by saying European birds are fit, espcially Czech's and Spaniards. And Rocky isn't anglo-saxon now is he?

IMHO them two whiteboys are the best coach and best athlete in the world currently by a long mile!!! Torres might one day become better than ALI!

YNWA

[Thunder Lips]

"Even then he cheated in that fight too"

Left hooks to the chin are illegal? Well ****.


"I was referring to the fact that he avoided Arnold Cream who said he would only fight again to thrash that bum. Anyway, who the **** was Arnold Cream. "

Dumbass. Arnold Cream was Walcott's real name. Marciano gave him his rematch and knocked him out with a clean left to the chin. He maybe could have beat the count, but I believe Walcott claimed to have blacked out during the count or he just didn't want to get hit anymore.


Well, this was fun but I'm already bored. I guess I should go lynch people or something.

[Flawless]

Let's face it; Rafael has let slip his REAL reason for downing Marciano: Marciano was white. In his narrow mind honky and good fighter don't belong in the same sentence. What a joke! The people who scream race the loudest, like Rafael, are usually the biggest bigots out there. Rafael proves it with every post. Never rank a white guy on the ATG Heavyweight list or Rafael will blow a gasket (among other things). I wonder how he'd like it if someone started slamming black fighters because they're black? Or Mexican fighters because they're Mexican? I wonder how he'd handle someone doing to his prefered ethnic group the same way he's doing whites? I got a news flash for you Rafael: Whites are a sizable percentage of the world's population, they aren't going anywhere and your bigotry isn't going to change that.

Poet

Rafael is Spanish, isn't that white.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Marciano's defense is underrated in that he's developed a reputation for walking through power shots without regard and was very easy to hit. This seems to be true when he was coming up but it doesn't seem a very accurate description of his years as a Contender and Champion; especially when one considers he was constantly facing quick accurate punchers like Matthews, Walcott, Charles, Moore, LaStarza, and even old Joe Louis who was still tough on the inside. Even than, these guys had some trouble finding him consistently and commented how deceptively hard he was to hit.

He comes foward in a predictable way and does not have great head movement. His defense is not as bad as some people make it seem but by no means is it underrated. Marciano was hit a lot in the fight thats you mentioned as well. I also had Walcott in a confortable lead up until the knockout in their first fight.

Yes, though I said I would favor Ali; durable swarmers with a strong workrate were a real pain for him. This is a constant throughout his entire career from the limited Chuvalo to Fraizer to the awkward Norton. I really fail to see how Marciano is such a huge mismatch against him, he would have a chance and regardless the outcome the fight would not be a piece of cake for Ali as you implied.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=h2ut_2v4npU

The Frazier and Chuvalo fights are after exile. Ali lost his foot speed and mainly relied on different tricks and tactics. Pre exile Ali had beautiful foot movement and arsenal.

Frazier and Chuvalo are also full fledge heavyweight that would still be considered heavyweights by todays standards, unlike Marciano who would only be considered a cruiserweight and a small one at that.. They were big enough to make that style work for them. Marciano has short arms, is a short guy himself at 5'10 and only weighed 185LBS. He also crouches in range and would not have the reach to constantly get to Ali. The odds are just too stacked against him here. Ali is 6'3, had a very long reach and had underrated strength(He was able to push Liston off and clinch when cornered.) Marciano was also prone to cuts and Ali had different ways of jabbing where he would twist his left jab which would cut his opponents skin up, similar to the way he did with Cooper ect.

The fact that Marciano struggled so much with Walcott really makes me not look too deep into this fanasy match up becuase the outcome is so blatantly obvious that there is really not much to say. Walcott is a great fighter and well all know that, but we also know that Ali had the better tools and ability. Think about, Ali is much faster than Walcott, has the better foot movement, is naturally bigger, buiser, punches at least as hard and has a more diverse arsenal.

You have good boxing knowledge, and you are the only guy that i know that could use that to make valid points in a fantasy match up that everyone knows the answer to. Thats takes talent Thunder Lips.