Mike Tyson vs Rocky Marciano

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

No, you look at what happened in the Douglas fight because it points to mental weakness, a lack of will in the face of adversity and an overinflated ego.

I disagree, there wouldn't have been adversity had Tyson come in right.

It may not have been Tyson at his best but it showcased many of the faults that had been leveled against him for years. He just had yet to face anyone who brought them to the forefront.

Douglas didn't bring any type of weakness out, Tyson did. And what faults are you talking about?

Where did I get that there were rumors about his will to win and mental toughness? They were speculated for years going back to his amateur days. At the time I read about them I dismissed them but they were ultimately proven correct. Once Tyson cant impose his will on an opponent he becomes a different fighter, deviates from the overall game plan and his will dwindles as the fight goes on. Sure he may have his moments due to the head-hunting nature but ultimately he's lost in the later in the rounds.

O.K. you read about it, that answers my question. Now, your looking real ignorant (LOL) to the fact that there was a time that Tyson had it together mentally. The fights you keep referring to were outside that time. In your haste to be correct, your looking desperate by analyzing a Tyson past his prime.

What weakness am I talking about? Which weaknesses have I detailed in this lengthy thread? Lack of will and mental toughness

That's the problem, your using that for the past prime Tyson against Douglas. I understand about lack of will in that fight, but there's nothing to suggest there was even an ounce of mental toughness lacking in that fight. He fought to the end.

Rooney also stated, that Tyson would get very aggitated when he couldn't knock his man out in the first few rounds and he would have fight him tooth and nail not to deviate from his strategy because he seemingly lost the inclination to fight. That alone points to a lack of mental toughness and without Rooney it became evident. Sure he came back into the ring in the Holyfield fight, just like he did in the Douglas fight, because he is a warrior.

First of all, you can't use the terms "lack of mental toughness" and "warrior" to describe a person. Both meanings contradict each other. The fact that Mike fought to the end and never quite in between rounds, points to his mental toughness.IMO You can believe what you want, actions speak louder than words, and Tyson never showed any of this when he was focused. My whole argument is about describing a prime Tyson, I do believe he showed a lot of what you have mentioned after his prime.

Please explain to me how Marciano/Louis is anything close to Douglas/Tyson? Louis was an old washed up fighter. Using that as an example is truly reaching.

I used that as an example to show you how truly ridiculous your argument is here.LOL For the fact that you don't want to recognize the Tyson that fought Douglas wasn't the "best" Tyson then Louis shouldn't have an excuse against Marciano. Just trying to show you how ridiculous your argument is to me. You'll give Louis an excuse for not being in his prime because he wasn't there physically. But you won't give Tyson an excuse for not being in his prime because he wasn't there mentally. Like I've stated over and over, the two are just as important for a fighter to have in the ring.

Oh so Mike was completely and utterly washed up prior to the Holyfield fight that no one gave him a chance in hell? No one, the experts nor anyone else, declared that after he annihilated Holyfield that he would rightfully reclaim his throne as king? Tyson may not have been 25 again, but he still had plenty of gas left in the tank and could have come close to replicating what he had done before, or so everyone claimed. To say anyone gave Holyfield a chance is out and out untrue.

If you think you just countered my argument with a point your wrong.LOL Dancing around the issue again I see. How do you expect to have a debate and make a countering point if you don't stick to the issue? I said he was out of his prime not completely washed up. Address what I'm saying, not what others said at the time. You seem stressed about the whole media thing surrounding that fight. Maybe should stop reading the papers or stay away from Sports Center like I mentioned earlier. LOL

But to say I danced around your points is baseless, I have acknowledged each and every 'point' you have declared.

Without going back and quoting every answer you've given be, I can say your answers have all been very indirect to the questions I presented. I see it as your way of dancing around the issues so you don't have to admit your ever wrong. That's what happens when one becomes heated in a debate, they won't give an inch. I know your not completely pissed though, because you haven't called me kid yet. LOL

However this 'argument' is not to justify Marciano beating Tyson (even though it is a Marciano/Tyson thread) but its that you can't just dismiss the Douglas fight as 'not Tyson in his prime'.

You believe prime=physically. I believe prime=mentally & physically, so does the rest of the boxing world.

Nor can a fight come in and out of his prime just because of his mental state. Thats the whole point of this.

I've clearly said over and over the Spinks fight was the last fight we seen Tyson at his prime. You say his prime lasted all the way until the Holyfield fight, therefor when I say Tyson wasn't right mentally during the Douglas fight, you take "YOUR" opinion of what his prime was (not mine) and look at it as him going in and out of his prime. There, is the picture clear now? LOL BTW sorry if I'm sounding like an ass here.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

This is a good statement, the only thing Marciano has on his profile is his "career numbers" you can not honestly watch a Marciano fight and say he would have beaten a prime Tyson. Mike was so much more powerful than Marciano, Marciano was just a tough guy brawler who pounded on guys (his size) round after round until they dropped..hardly what I call "one of the hardest punchers". It's an early round knock out no matter which way you spin it, what advantage would Marciano have? Boxing heart won't matter when you get rocked by a 220 lb knockout artist. Marciano is slower on the outside and inside, he can't hit as hard, he's smaller and although his stamina was great Tyson could go 12 rounds to on any given day, and a Tired Tyson was still quicker than a fresh rocky.

my 2 cents.

I totally agree with all that. One example that heart for Marciano has nothing to do with it, is the Frazier Foreman fight. We all know Frazier had a tremendous heart, but it didn't keep Foremans fists from knocking him out.

[Hawkins]

First of all, you can't use the terms "lack of mental toughness" and "warrior" to describe a person. Both meanings contradict each other. The fact that Mike fought to the end and never quite in between rounds, points to his mental toughness.IMO You can believe what you want, actions speak louder than words, and Tyson never showed any of this when he was focused. My whole argument is about describing a prime Tyson, I do believe he showed a lot of what you have mentioned after his prime.

How so? Heart is immeasurable. Mental toughness is holding up under adversity and sticking to certain things, such as gameplans and strategy and not becoming shaken. Yet that didn't happen. Heart is another way of saying you get up and continuing when no one else thinks you could. Two distinctly different things.

I used that as an example to show you how truly ridiculous your argument is here.LOL For the fact that you don't want to recognize the Tyson that fought Douglas wasn't the "best" Tyson then Louis shouldn't have an excuse against Marciano. Just trying to show you how ridiculous your argument is to me. You'll give Louis an excuse for not being in his prime because he wasn't there physically. But you won't give Tyson an excuse for not being in his prime because he wasn't there mentally. Like I've stated over and over, the two are just as important for a fighter to have in the ring.

Where did I say Tyson was at his very best? I think I have clearly said many times his head wasn't on the fight. Yet, you can't turn around and say it wasn't in his prime as a fighter.

If you think you just countered my argument with a point your wrong.LOL Dancing around the issue again I see. How do you expect to have a debate and make a countering point if you don't stick to the issue? I said he was out of his prime not completely washed up. Address what I'm saying, not what others said at the time. You seem stressed about the whole media thing surrounding that fight. Maybe should stop reading the papers or stay away from Sports Center like I mentioned earlier.

And again I ask you which point did I not address? Which question Did I not answer?

Without going back and quoting every answer you've given be, I can say your answers have all been very indirect to the questions I presented. I see it as your way of dancing around the issues so you don't have to admit your ever wrong. That's what happens when one becomes heated in a debate, they won't give an inch. I know your not completely pissed though, because you haven't called me kid yet. LOL

Well, I didn't think it was a heated debate LOL And if I EVER get pissed because of something said on a message board it's time to hang it up. Getting pissed off over this is silly. Nuttin' but love But, in all honesty, I don't see where I have been indirect.

You believe prime=physically. I believe prime=mentally & physically, so does the rest of the boxing world.

I can see your point BUT I think you have it twisted. Being at your absolute best may = prime + mentality, but your prime is still the physical age at which you are physically at your peak.

I've clearly said over and over the Spinks fight was the last fight we seen Tyson at his prime. You say his prime lasted all the way until the Holyfield fight, therefor when I say Tyson wasn't right mentally during the Douglas fight, you take "YOUR" opinion of what his prime was (not mine) and look at it as him going in and out of his prime. There, is the picture clear now? LOL BTW sorry if I'm sounding like an ass here.

Do I think Tyson of the first Holyfield fight was at his absolute prime? No, I don't. But I do think he still had some very good years left in him had he decided to stay on the right path. Especially when compared to a battle worn Evander. The Spinks fight was the last good fight of the Rooney Tyson and was at the very beginning of his downfall, the difference being he would have been able to get it all back had he pulled his head out of his ass.

[Jim Jeffries]

The fact that a 34 year old, battle worn Holyfield, could stop a 30 year old Tyson suggests to me that he could have done the same when they were both younger.

[Mike Tyson77]

I'm not rehashing this a dozen times. If you want know then go back and read the things I have posted regarding this.

You really seem like the guy that thinks Tyson, Jones Jr, Mayweather,Wlad, all suck because they didnt fight in the 20's. That golden age of boxing.

The fact that a 34 year old, battle worn Holyfield, could stop a 30 year old Tyson suggests to me that he could have done the same when they were both younger.

It surely doesent suggest that to me.

[Hawkins]

You really seem like the guy that thinks Tyson, Jones Jr, Mayweather,Wlad, all suck because they didnt fight in the 20's. That golden age of boxing.

really? All because I choose not to bow down at the alter of Mike Tyson?

[Mike Tyson77]

really? All because I choose not to bow down at the alter of Mike Tyson?

Better than bowing down to that alter of Jack Sharky that you did.

[Hawkins]

Better than bowing down to that alter of Jack Sharky that you did.

Ummm..sure thing pal.

[Mike Tyson77]

Ummm..sure thing pal.

I just wanna know why you hate Tyson and Jones Jr. What did they do to you?

[Hawkins]

I just wanna know why you hate Tyson and Jones Jr. What did they do to you?

Where do you get that I hate them? I have never said that anywhere. I just dont understand the total blind allegiance to a fighter. I don't hate any fighter. I respect anyone who gets into the ring.