A Couple of Jack Johnson questions

[QueensburyRules]

I think the thing with greb is that despite him being smaller he was without doubt avoided by dempsey.

He (or rather his team) chose brennan, gibbons and miske as title challengers. Hed beaten two of them already, greb had beaten all 3 of them. Also greb got the better of dempsey in sparring. Greb was smaller but dempsey wasnt a giant either. Greb also beat tunney. He was definitely avoided.

- -Translation: Greb avoided by Wills, Langford, and Jeannette!

Sorted...

[Marchegiano]

I think the thing with greb is that despite him being smaller he was without doubt avoided by dempsey.

He (or rather his team) chose brennan, gibbons and miske as title challengers. Hed beaten two of them already, greb had beaten all 3 of them. Also greb got the better of dempsey in sparring. Greb was smaller but dempsey wasnt a giant either. Greb also beat tunney. He was definitely avoided.

So why should Wills need to fight Greb to get a Dempsey fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

It is an age old question usually applied to LHWs -- Does a LHW have to prove himself against a few HWs before he gets a shot or not?

Histoically there several examples both ways.

Greb didn't get a shot in '22 because no promoter could meet Kearns base guarantee of 300k. The best offer I know of was a 100K and 50% of the gate offer, from a Phily promoter. --- Kearns always refused to accept any gate % deal unless his guarantee was met first. No one else stepped up.

Text Rickard didn't want Greb because he couldn't tie him up to a multiple fight deal, as he did with Carpentier, Firpo, and Tunney.

[cfang]

wills clearly couldnt get fights against any of those guys. He fought black fighters in his prime. If you look at his remarkable run during dempsey's reign you'll see dempsey went 5-0 against 3 guys recently beaten by greb, carpentier and firpo. Wills had 45 fights in that time against the world's best black fighters and lost 1..by dq. Hed have taken any top boxer, he was avoided by everybody until past his best. Greb was just avoided by dempsey.

[cfang]

Good post this

It is an age old question usually applied to LHWs -- Does a LHW have to prove himself against a few HWs before he gets a shot or not?

Histoically there several examples both ways.

Greb didn't get a shot in '22 because no promoter could meet Kearns base guarantee of 300k. The best offer I know of was a 100K and 50% of the gate offer, from a Phily promoter. --- Kearns always refused to accept any gate % deal unless his guarantee was met first. No one else stepped up.

Text Rickard didn't want Greb because he couldn't tie him up to a multiple fight deal, as he did with Carpentier, Firpo, and Tunney.

[QueensburyRules]

Good post this

- -Has nothing to do with any ducking.

U a quacker?

[HOUDINI563]

Many mistakes here. You fail to mention Johnson signed a contact to fight Langford in 1909.

The only mistake is you. Johnson signed to fight Langford three times. All three fell through.

The 1913 match between Jim Battling Johnson and Jack Johnson featured two African Americans, essentially destroying your argument that " No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries "

Again the only mistake is you. We are talking a mixed race bout.

Well it did, and Jack Johnson was nearly KO'd

Meaningless.

Many people wanted to see Johnson vs the best. It did not happen.

The top promoter of that time disagrees with you. He would have known better don’t you think?

Johnson purse demands are just that. He fought Fireman Flynn, a dreadful filmed match for less than 30K. Are you aware of that?

Wrong. He received $31,100 for the Flynn fight from Jack Curley the morning of the fight. Johnson was on a flat guarantee of$30,000 plus $1,100 for expenses and1/3rd of the film rights. Johnson was offered an alternative deal of $20,000 plus33% of the film rights, but opted for the former.

And he fought Moran for far less than 30k.

Neither Moran or Johnson were ever paid for this fight the reason being Moran's manager Dan McKetrick insisted Moran sign an exclusive contract with him and Moran refused .Moran had completed a vaudeville tour with another manager in the US and McKetrick feared he would be stolen away from him.
McKetrick hired a French attorney,Lucien Cerf and had him impound the profits from the fight.
Neither of the fighters or McKetrick was able to draw on the money unless all signed a release ,Johnson and Moran were of course happy to sign but McKetrick would not sign unless Moran agreed to sign the exclusive contract that he demanded , Moran refused and there was then stale-mate.

Cerf deposited the purse in the Bank Of France, joined the Army and was promptly killed , the bank denied having any record of the money and no one ever saw any of it.

As champion with Johnson and Dempsey could have fought anyone they wanted to. With Dempsey, okay if he can't fight Wills in the State of New York, why not move the fight to New Jersey, Chicago, LA, San Fran or Vegas?

It’s a fighter job to fight. It’s the managers and promoters job to make the fights. Wills years later laid no blame upon Dempsey. He stated it was those who controlled the sport who were to blame. Dempseys comment from the 60’s was that those same people who publicly claimed they wanted the bout to occur in private told him the bout would never come off.

The race riots after Johnson Jeffries were still on everyone’s mind.

[Dr. Z]

Many mistakes here. You fail to mention Johnson signed a contact to fight Langford in 1909.

The only mistake is you. Johnson signed to fight Langford three times. All three fell through.

The 1913 match between Jim Battling Johnson and Jack Johnson featured two African Americans, essentially destroying your argument that " No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries "

Again the only mistake is you. We are talking a mixed race bout.

Well it did, and Jack Johnson was nearly KO'd

Meaningless.

Many people wanted to see Johnson vs the best. It did not happen.

The top promoter of that time disagrees with you. He would have known better don’t you think?

Johnson purse demands are just that. He fought Fireman Flynn, a dreadful filmed match for less than 30K. Are you aware of that?

Wrong. He received $31,100 for the Flynn fight from Jack Curley the morning of the fight. Johnson was on a flat guarantee of$30,000 plus $1,100 for expenses and1/3rd of the film rights. Johnson was offered an alternative deal of $20,000 plus33% of the film rights, but opted for the former.

And he fought Moran for far less than 30k.

Neither Moran or Johnson were ever paid for this fight the reason being Moran's manager Dan McKetrick insisted Moran sign an exclusive contract with him and Moran refused .Moran had completed a vaudeville tour with another manager in the US and McKetrick feared he would be stolen away from him.
McKetrick hired a French attorney,Lucien Cerf and had him impound the profits from the fight.
Neither of the fighters or McKetrick was able to draw on the money unless all signed a release ,Johnson and Moran were of course happy to sign but McKetrick would not sign unless Moran agreed to sign the exclusive contract that he demanded , Moran refused and there was then stale-mate.

Cerf deposited the purse in the Bank Of France, joined the Army and was promptly killed , the bank denied having any record of the money and no one ever saw any of it.

As champion with Johnson and Dempsey could have fought anyone they wanted to. With Dempsey, okay if he can't fight Wills in the State of New York, why not move the fight to New Jersey, Chicago, LA, San Fran or Vegas?

It’s a fighter job to fight. It’s the managers and promoters job to make the fights. Wills years later laid no blame upon Dempsey. He stated it was those who controlled the sport who were to blame. Dempseys comment from the 60’s was that those same people who publicly claimed they wanted the bout to occur in private told him the bout would never come off.

The race riots after Johnson Jeffries were still on everyone’s mind.

Okay, produce your sources on the following please.

1 ) Johnson signed a 1909 contract to fight Langford, what fell through? Johnson signed it, the money was there for the fight.


2 ) Johnson had mostly mixed race bouts as champion. There was no riot vs Johnson vs. Ketchel, Moran, or Flynn. Hence the quote that " No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries " is false, and it's proven false by Jim Battling Johnson vs Jack Johnson, two African Americans. By the way do you have the purse for this fight, or reasoning as to why it was only 10 rounds out of curiosity? Battling Jim who sported a so-so ring record almost knocked him out.


3 ) Johnson DID NOT receive $31,000 for Flynn, the actual amount was less.

4 ) Johnson could have fought in multiple locations, fact remains he used both a color line and an ability line. He simply back out of big money fights most of the time with Langford, and Jeanette, and never dared to give Smith a title fight. His story of a dive vs Willard is pure BS. Those who own the films will note that Johnson was badly hurt by a body shot in round 25 and slowing down. Willard caught him flush in rounds 26. No dive. The reports of it being 100 degrees are fantasy, and it never got that hot in Havana in April.

Right it's a fighters job to fight, not back out of signed contracts, or avoid making them as Johnson so often did.

PS: Why don't the KO loss to Choyniski, the loss the Griffin or Hart count? They should and if you take not, none of these guys were very young or green, they were only better than the people Johnson beat early who were very young and green, and title defenses where he won who were very small, unskilled or very old.

[Dr. Z]

I think the thing with greb is that despite him being smaller he was without doubt avoided by dempsey.

He (or rather his team) chose brennan, gibbons and miske as title challengers. Hed beaten two of them already, greb had beaten all 3 of them. Also greb got the better of dempsey in sparring. Greb was smaller but dempsey wasnt a giant either. Greb also beat tunney. He was definitely avoided.

This is a solid post A Champion needs to prove it by fighting the best. That's his worth.

Dempsey did not fight Wills or Greb, and there is no excuse why Greb never got the fight as he pretty much beat some of the same guys Dempsey did. These two were his top contenders aside from Tunney who whipped him.

Johnson avoided his top 4-5 contenders.

[travestyny]

Okay, produce your sources on the following please.

1 ) Johnson signed a 1909 contract to fight Langford, what fell through? Johnson signed it, the money was there for the fight.

Apparently, this is what happened.

The contract you are talking about must originate in 1908. It was for Johnson to fight Langford in England. This was the fight on tap in case they couldn't get Burns to agree. Then it looked like Burns would agree, so it was scrapped. Then when it seemed Burns would pull out again, the fight with Langford was made for February. There seems to be some disagreement about who signed this contract--Johnson or his manager. It was for a pot of $6000. Winner takes $4000, loser takes $2000.

Then Burns accepted to fight Johnson, the fight to take place in December, and this fight would "postponed" the Langford fight til May. It was no surprise that once Burns accepted, Johnson would not be following the contract for February of 1909.



October 1908 -- "It is probable that if he is assured of meeting Tommy he would call off the Langford engagement and journey to the island continent."







$4000 to the winner, $2000 to the loser. Jack Johnson claims he never signed any contracts and will not honor contracts that his former manager signed. Contracts that were made before he was champion at that.




So the question is...did Johnson sign a contract to fight Langford for at most $4000 and as little as $2000 for the Heavyweight Championship for May of 1909?

First of all, that would be beyond ******. Of course he wouldn't risk the championship for $2000. Expecting him to would be unrealistic.

But beyond that, he claims any contracts that were signed were not signed by him, but by his manager. So do you have any proof of the contract for May 1909 being signed by him? Above it claims the contracts were signed by his manager, and signed in the fall. The only contract (or something purporting to be signed by someone of importance) I've ever seen in this entire matter is the one for the fight in Feb. that all sides agreed was off. Where is the contract for the May 1909 fight? I don't even know that there was one. Was it simply a verbal agreement between Johnson's former manager? Where are your sources?