Joe Louis: A Retrospective

[Dr. Z]

Seldom fought anyone who presented a real challenge... With that said, I believe he was better than his brother, and could have been a much better fighter had he challenged himself.

Vitali fought about 9-10 top ten ranked guys, some of whom were good. He was just so big and talented others had a hard time with it. His durability prevented a TKO from conventional means. His looses were due to an injury and cut that look bad, but was under control when the ring doctor stopped it. He was n the lead in both fights, and Lewis and a prime Byrd were quality competition.

No man won more than three rounds against him on the official score cards. That is very impressive. If I think back to heavyweight history, no one else has come close to that, and it's not all lack of competition.

Godoy might win 1 round against Vitlai, that's it. But as the film shows Louis had his hands full.

[billeau2]

Vitali fought about 9-10 top ten ranked guys, some of whom were good. He was just so big and talented others had a hard time with it. His durability prevented a TKO from conventional means. His looses were due to an injury and cut that look bad, but was under control when the ring doctor stopped it. He was n the lead in both fights, and Lewis and a prime Byrd were quality competition.

No man won more than three rounds against him on the official score cards. That is very impressive. If I think back to heavyweight history, no one else has come close to that, and it's not all lack of competition.

Godoy might win 1 round against Vitlai, that's it. But as the film shows Louis had his hands full.

Louis hardly had his hands full. There were times in the fight where Godoy had control, but Louis was hitting him cleanly, slow the film down and watch... Godoy gave a great effort, but sometimes things have to be looked at carefully. Punches are fast, and its not always easy to see what is landing. Louis was also turning him, controlling his movements in the corners.

Vitali's best win maybe Sam Peter? lol. Regarding the Lewis fight, its funny to me how lewis fans and Vitali fans see it so differently. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Louis had started to hit Vitalie good... hence the injury, Vitalie was, for his part, in the first rounds, hitting Lewis good. Both men took the shots... I have stopped making excuses for Lewis, as I used to emphasize how he was training to fight a guy who was virtually no threat before agreeing to fight Vitalie.

Truth is both men showed tremendous heart that fight and we will never know how it would have gone...

[ShoulderRoll]

Vitali Klit has a terrible resume. He lost to the only quality fighters he faced.

[Dynamite76]

- -Had I been gifted the Ali Holmsey fought, I'd have been the lineal hvy champ like Leon and U boys be bowing and scraping as is U natures.

Gotcha!

[Dr. Z]

Vitali Klit has a terrible resume. He lost to the only quality fighters he faced.

He went 45-2 (41) overall and 15-2 (12) in HW World Title fights, and bat 9-10 ring magazine opponents.

For openers, it's possible to rip anyone competition. So rather than rip them ( I could even rip Ali's ) let's remain positive and compare his accomplishments to the field.

Vitali always fought heavyweights and only faced one opponent with a losing record when he fought him. He became a world title holder in less than three years and never used a color line.

Ratings can be viewed head to head, or via accomplishments.

Head to head, he likely beats anyone pre-Sonny Liston, and could beat anyone post Liston.


Accomplishments:

Best rounds won to rounds lost ratio, not only in the history of heavyweights but among all boxing champions. Towering above Ali or Holmes on the score cards, who in fact lost more rounds to lesser men than Vitali defeated. Vitali combined power, size, smarts, defense, counterpunching, and ring generalship to the maximum by engaging his opponents and forcing them to fight on his terms. Vitali never trailed on any scorecard after three rounds, and never lost more than three consensus rounds in any fight. This includes fight where he was injured ( Byrd and Chisora ).


Never floored by a punch. Ever. Vitali and Oliver Mcall are the only two in the history of the division never to be floored by a punch, and Vitali fought plenty of punchers who landed hard to test his chin/durability

One of the best knock artists of all time, with 87% KO ratio. It went down a little with age, and so would any champions.

One of the most active heavyweights on the punch stats, comparing to Marciano or Frazier's activity level.

**So far we are talking about a guy who was incredibly difficult to outbox, was never floored who had the power and stamina to stop anyone early or late.**

An all time come back. Which boxer came back four years out of the ring, and no warm up fights not only to take his title back but to win nine title defenses in a row at age 37-41. The answer is zero.


14-2 in world title matches, fought approximately 9-10 opponents ( give or take 1 ) who were ranked in Ring Magazine's top ten. Valuev and Haye, who were highly rated backed out of fights with Vitali


Ring Magazine champion #1 at Box Rec, fight news and EPSN

Both of his losses are on fights that were taken on less than two weeks notices.

One was an injury retirement when Vitali a sports doctor lost feeling in his arm and feared permanent injury from a shoulder tear. He was well in the lead, fighting with essentially one good arm from round three to nine vs a prime Chris Byrd.

The other loss was vs Lennox Lewis a very good older fighter and lineal champion. This was a cuts loss. There is video proof that Lewis landed a back hard to the area where the cut was, which could have caused the cut. He also rubbed the top of his head into Vitali's region of the cut after the backhand landed. We'll never know exactly when the cut was created. Vitali lead 4-2 on all three cards, which means Lewis who was very tired would have to win 4 of the next 6 rounds on at least two cards to get a draw. Lewis said he would rematch several times but never did. This is very telling as there was 17-18 million purse for Lewis. The truth is Lewis likely felt he was fortunate in the first fight and would have lost the re-match. I never saw a cut title match loss where the guy in the lead never had a re-match, have you?

I'll close here. Re-matches are important. Vitali was denied his chance to avenge his losses.

What if Schmeling never re-matches Louis and didn't get a chance to face Braddock early in his career?

What if Fraizer and Norton never re-matched Ali?!

What if Rahman and McCall never Re-matches Lewis?!

I'll tell you what would happen, neither Louis or Ali would be rated #1 and #2 today. And Lewis ranking would have tumbled. Personally, I rate Ali #1 overall, and both Louis and Lewis in my top 6.

Any sane boxing fans know Vitali would have beaten Byrd if there was a re-match.

[Dr. Z]

Louis hardly had his hands full. There were times in the fight where Godoy had control, but Louis was hitting him cleanly, slow the film down and watch... Godoy gave a great effort, but sometimes things have to be looked at carefully. Punches are fast, and its not always easy to see what is landing. Louis was also turning him, controlling his movements in the corners.

Vitali's best win maybe Sam Peter? lol. Regarding the Lewis fight, its funny to me how lewis fans and Vitali fans see it so differently. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Louis had started to hit Vitalie good... hence the injury, Vitalie was, for his part, in the first rounds, hitting Lewis good. Both men took the shots... I have stopped making excuses for Lewis, as I used to emphasize how he was training to fight a guy who was virtually no threat before agreeing to fight Vitalie.

Truth is both men showed tremendous heart that fight and we will never know how it would have gone...

Godoy gave away the 15th round. Yes, he was in control at time like you said, hence Louis had his hands full and did not look good in this fight.

I'd say Vitlai's best win was Peter or Sanders. focus on how dominant he was in the win, not the fact that Peter at the time was #1 ranked and gave Wlad a tough fight, or Sanders Ko'd Wlad and was ranked #3 at the time.

Too bad Vitali never got a re-match with Byrd ( Which he would win easily ) or Lewis.

Lewis didn't want the re-match, which would have been the biggest fight in boxing at the time. IMO, both guy rose their stock that night, Vitali for leading in the fight, and Lewis for his best pure win, even if it came on cuts.

[QueensburyRules]

Accomplishments:

Best rounds won to rounds lost ratio, not only in the history of heavyweights but among all boxing champions. Towering above Ali or Holmes on the score cards, who in fact lost more rounds to lesser men than Vitali defeated. Vitali combined power, size, smarts, defense, counterpunching, and ring generalship to the maximum by engaging his opponents and forcing them to fight on his terms. Vitali never trailed on any scorecard after three rounds, and never lost more than three consensus rounds in any fight. This includes fight where he was injured ( Byrd and Chisora ).


Never floored by a punch. Ever. Vitali and Oliver Mcall are the only two in the history of the division never to be floored by a punch, and Vitali fought plenty of punchers who landed hard to test his chin/durability

- -Big Vit fan here, but Valuev never KDed nor Chauncey Welliver who may hold the record for rds contested without a KD.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/50877

[billeau2]

Godoy gave away the 15th round. Yes, he was in control at time like you said, hence Louis had his hands full and did not look good in this fight.

I'd say Vitlai's best win was Peter or Sanders. focus on how dominant he was in the win, not the fact that Peter at the time was #1 ranked and gave Wlad a tough fight, or Sanders Ko'd Wlad and was ranked #3 at the time.

Too bad Vitali never got a re-match with Byrd ( Which he would win easily ) or Lewis.

Lewis didn't want the re-match, which would have been the biggest fight in boxing at the time. IMO, both guy rose their stock that night, Vitali for leading in the fight, and Lewis for his best pure win, even if it came on cuts.

You mischaracterized my post. I merely indicated that Godoy had his moments.

its not a question of Louis looking good. He was hitting Godoy so he let Godoy come to him. Most of Godoy's efforts were ineffective aggression.

Again, very silly. Vitali was dominant against fighters that were good at best. Sanders was inconsistent, didn't train much, etc. he still buckled Vitalie's knees. Peter was slow and never that much of a threat.

Vitalie was not Lewis' best "pure win." if anything it was Ruddock.

[Dr. Z]

You mischaracterized my post. I merely indicated that Godoy had his moments.

its not a question of Louis looking good. He was hitting Godoy so he let Godoy come to him. Most of Godoy's efforts were ineffective aggression.

Again, very silly. Vitali was dominant against fighters that were good at best. Sanders was inconsistent, didn't train much, etc. he still buckled Vitalie's knees. Peter was slow and never that much of a threat.

Vitalie was not Lewis' best "pure win." if anything it was Ruddock.

Godoy had more than a few moments in the first fight Watch the film. Louis did not look good here.

Sanders was unique. A big southpaw with very fast hands and a lot of power. He did land a bog left to the side of the head in round one, Vitali took it and recovered without going down and domiated the rest of the rounds.

All heavyweights can be inconstant. Could Louis have taken that left? Based on how he took Schmeling's right, I would say no, meaning he would bot recover fast from it, and would be vulnerable to the TKO.

I think your out of bounds. No one considers Ruddock, who lost often, including to Tommy Morrison Lennox's best win. Who did Razor really beat? Not even a top 5 win for Lewis.

[billeau2]

Godoy had more than a few moments in the first fight Watch the film. Louis did not look good here.

Sanders was unique. A big southpaw with very fast hands and a lot of power. He did land a bog left to the side of the head in round one, Vitali took it and recovered without going down and domiated the rest of the rounds.

All heavyweights can be inconstant. Could Louis have taken that left? Based on how he took Schmeling's right, I would say no, meaning he would bot recover fast from it, and would be vulnerable to the TKO.

I think your out of bounds. No one considers Ruddock, who lost often, including to Tommy Morrison Lennox's best win. Who did Razor really beat? Not even a top 5 win for Lewis.

Agreed about Sanders. Razor's competition was not outstanding, but he was very talented. There is a video of him sparring with Holmes, when he was still a two arm fighter. You can see he has many skills. When he was set to fight Lewis people were convinced he would soundly beat lewis. I do have to concede that when he fought lewis he had become essentially a one armed fighter, but to his credit Lewis did what he should have.