BEST POUND 4 POUND CHAMP EVER? and top 10

[Panamaniac]

Appendix

Bert Sugar's top ten:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Durán
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

[SABBATH]

No need to shoeshine me with your Junior of Oz batscat. Let me know anytime you get near Muleshoe or anywheres in Texas. Not guaranteeing I would bother to introduce you to my "fat Texas Cowboy ass" since travel distances are ridiculous, but sometimes convenience is a godsend when it works out. All legal and in a gym with plenty minders for you of course!

No need to travel to the armpit of Texas to see you in a nurse uniform changing the bedpans of lobotomy patients.

I'll pass.

[hhascup]

I just made a great, lengthy post, and lost internet because of a t-storm. In a nutshell:

Ali's best opponents:
Liston (50-4) made 1 successful defense.
Frazier (32-4-1) made 4 successful defenses.
Foreman (76-5) made 3 successful defenses in two careers.

Louis' best opponents:
Charles (96-25-1) made 7 successful defenses.
Walcott (52-18-2) made 1 successful defense.
Marciano (49-0) made 6 successful defenses.

Louis' opponents fought more, fought more frequently, and were tough-as-nails style competitors. They made more successful title defenses, and didn't fight under protected, high promotion, groom for the payday environments.

Louis lost to both Charles and Marciano. My list is the boxers they beat. Liston (2), Frazier (2/3), Patterson (2), Foreman (1). I see you left out Patterson, BUT he had 6 successful defenses.

Just match up the boxers that fought Ali with them that fought Louis. Here they are again:

I have my picks in BOLD

Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 48-7-4 & 52-7-4
Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0

[hhascup]

Your mention of Bert Sugar as a colleague is rather interesting precisely because he does not share your perspective of Ali ahead of Louis. Not only is Louis the greatest heavyweight in his book, he is ranked 4th. overall, ahead of Ali, 7th.

In fact, most boxing historians, scribes, experts and polls rank Louis ahead of Ali. Again, your opinion is just as valid as the next guy's, but in the grand scheme of things, it is as significant as a fly on an elephant's ass.

Yes I know he has Louis as #1, several years ago he had Dempsey. I asked him why did he change his list, he said because he listens.

On the ESPN show where he picked his Top 10 Heavyweights, Larry Holmes, George Chuvalo and the Host all had Ali as #1.

I think Sugar is Great and I respect his opinion a lot, BUT even the best of us will not agree on everything.

By the way,here's his list:

Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic

Here's another list he made in 1991:

Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Here's Herb Goldman's lists:

Herbert Goldman, 1987

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Sonny Liston
3.Larry Holmes
4.Jack Johnson
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Joe Louis
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Harry Wills
9.George Foreman
10.Joe Frazier
11.Mike Tyson
12.Joe Jeannette
13.Jersey Joe Walcott


Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier


Steve Farhood, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Jim Jeffries
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Mike Tyson
10.George Foreman

Here's what Teddy Atlas and Max Kellerman have as their all-time Greatest boxers:

Max Kellerman:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles
10a. Jimmy Wilde


Tony Atlas:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon
10a. Joe Louis



There many that have Louis as #1 including the Organization that I was a charter member of. Note: Not everyone voted but I think you will enjoy it anyway:

IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier

[hhascup]

Here's another one that might interest you:

Ring Magazine's list of the 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years

---

2002

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio César Chávez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. **** Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones, Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gómez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar de la Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson

[Panamaniac]

Yes I know he has Louis as #1, several years ago he had Dempsey. I asked him why did he change his list, he said because he listens.

On the ESPN show where he picked his Top 10 Heavyweights, Larry Holmes, George Chuvalo and the Host all had Ali as #1.

I think Sugar is Great and I respect his opinion a lot, BUT even the best of us will not agree on everything.

Your point is well taken and everything you say is true, particularly that opinions vary, even within a given individual at different times. I am my own best example of this. I reviewed several posts on this forum to find that while I consistently listed the same fighters, the order of ranking among the top 10 varied.

Also of note to this obserer is the fact that Muhammad Ali's ranking among the best heavyweights, as well as his ranking overall (p4p) was higher among today's contemporaries as opposed to the old-timers. That is, the younger the individual, the higher his placement of Muhammad Ali.

Back to the Ali/Louis debate in closing: Of all the rankings I have been exposed to through the years, a vast majority (about 80%) have ranked Louis ahead of Ali.

[LondonRingRules]

No need to travel

** You're smarter than I credited you for Junior. Of course Ozzie Sr ain't going to let his precious little sonnyboy leave his nanny to go down to mean ol' Texas for a whippin' since he has his minders take care of that little piece of business when necessary and you have your education to attend to.

Stay in school kid and be serious about your studies. When you get your balls under you, let me know and I'll be happy to treat you to some ring time or happytime, the choice will be yours, but hopefully you'll be a bit more mature.

[LondonRingRules]

Chuck told me that he was so tried in the end of the bout that he just couldn't go on. The Referee was Tony Perez and I had the pleasure of introducing him and Chuck at many functions.

** Ahh, I thought you might have a some insight on this fight. I will go and check out those sites you mention.

Yes, Wepner was technically called out and I thought him finished, but that was one of many very strange, one off types of fights that Ali seemed to have a lot of.

You have provided many career details for your rankings which is very commendable. Consider Nat Fleischer saw Ali in his prime and at his peak, yet never ranked Ali higher than 10 overall as I recall. The Chuvalo rematch would have been the last bout Nat ever saw.

How do you explain this given Nat's stature in boxing history?

[SABBATH]

When you get your balls under you, let me know and I'll be happy to treat you to some ring time

More tough talk there Miss Ratchett. Careful now. You might put a run in your pantyhose.

[hhascup]

** Ahh, I thought you might have a some insight on this fight. I will go and check out those sites you mention.

Yes, Wepner was technically called out and I thought him finished, but that was one of many very strange, one off types of fights that Ali seemed to have a lot of.

You have provided many career details for your rankings which is very commendable. Consider Nat Fleischer saw Ali in his prime and at his peak, yet never ranked Ali higher than 10 overall as I recall. The Chuvalo rematch would have been the last bout Nat ever saw.

How do you explain this given Nat's stature in boxing history?

Sorry for the delay BUT I just got back from the Amateur bouts in Trenton, were I Had to introduce James Scott, Sammy Goss among others.

As far as Nat Fleischer goes, he never liked the modern boxers, just look at his all-time ratings:

Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

1.Jack Johnson
2.Jim Jeffries
3.Bob Fitzsimmons
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jim Corbett
6.Joe Louis
7.Sam Langford
8.Gene Tunney
9.Max Schemling
10.Rocky Marciano

People wanted him to rate Ali but he wouldn't do it. He actually waited until they retired about he rated them,so maybe that's why.