Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[The Iron Man]

My mistake, i didnt realise you counted the RTD Againt Brian Nielsen. I give credit wen its due, after all this is a debate and you cant go into it and not regarding what the other person is sayin, thats just you giving what you think and nothing else.

As for Frazier tyson, i know frazier was better in the later rounds. And i think wou know tyson was better in the early rounds. But it comes to this, was tyson better in the later rounds than Frazier was in the early rounds (if u get me). It looks to me that if tyson doesnt knock him out in the early rounds, he may do enough to win the fight on points if frazier doesnt knock him out. I think that Tyson would have this fight in the early rounds. However if it went to the late rounds i think Frazier would have to win by KO, i dnt think he would be able to win it on points.

[hhascup]

Some good points Henry. I do think though that although facing Louis and Moore past their primes he still faced them and you'd have to agree that the last thing a fighter loses is his power. So he probably took their best shots just not as many as he would have done if they were at their peak. He also fought Walcott who while a very good boxer could **** a bit, although not as hard as Foreman and Tyson he still packed a wallop. Remember that punch that knocked out Charles that was one of the best KO punches in the history of the division.

One punch doesn't make anyone a Great puncher. Patterson hit Ingo with one of the Greatest left hooks also. Walcott had 32 KO's in his 71 bouts, that's hardly a Great punchers Stats. When we talk about Louis who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Remember, Tyson would out weigh Marciano by over 30 pounds, so I would have to give the power to him. I would also give the speed, BUT Rocky would have the stamina, Heart, Chin, mental toughness, all around toughness.

If you look at who they fought, Tyson did box better opponents.

Tyson fought boxers with an average record of (W) 22.2758 - (L) 3.5 - (D) 0.3 and Rocky fought boxers with an average record of (W) 29.7 - (L) 10.16 - (D) 1.8.

Tyson fought 33 different boxers 36 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another. Marciano fought 13 different boxers 16 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another.


Tyson hit very hard. He had 22 first round knockouts and if you count Peter McNeeley, it would be 23 in his 58 bouts.

Rocky had 11 first round knockouts in 49 bouts.

In Tyson's 52 bouts where he either won or fought a NC, he fought an average of 3.365 rounds, if you count the other bouts which he lost, he fought an average of 3.74 Rounds.

In Marciano's 49 bouts, he averaged 4.9387755 rounds.


AND Tyson did this against better opponents.

So if you go by this, I would have to say that Tyson hit harder, was more aggressive, a much faster starter BUT Marciano had a better chin, heart, stamina, and mental & all around toughness.

If I was a betting man, I would bet on Tyson because Rocky wouldn't back up any and that would be his down fall. If it lasted beyond the 5th round, I would have to go with Marciano, BUT I just can't see him staying away that long to make that happen.

[hhascup]

My mistake, i didnt realise you counted the RTD Againt Brian Nielsen. I give credit wen its due, after all this is a debate and you cant go into it and not regarding what the other person is sayin, thats just you giving what you think and nothing else.

As for Frazier tyson, i know frazier was better in the later rounds. And i think wou know tyson was better in the early rounds. But it comes to this, was tyson better in the later rounds than Frazier was in the early rounds (if u get me). It looks to me that if tyson doesnt knock him out in the early rounds, he may do enough to win the fight on points if frazier doesnt knock him out. I think that Tyson would have this fight in the early rounds. However if it went to the late rounds i think Frazier would have to win by KO, i dnt think he would be able to win it on points.

I agree ALMOST!

Tyson would start fast like he always did, BUT in the middle rounds Frazier would take control. The only question I see is can Frazier weather the storm in the 1st several rounds, if so, Frazier would stop Tyson in the later rounds. If it happened to go the distance, and I can't see that happening no way, Frazier still could win the decsion because of his work out put.

[-CANE-]

One punch doesn't make anyone a Great puncher. Patterson hit Ingo with one of the Greatest left hooks also. Walcott had 32 KO's in his 71 bouts, that's hardly a Great punchers Stats. When we talk about Louis who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Remember, Tyson would out weigh Marciano by over 30 pounds, so I would have to give the power to him. I would also give the speed, BUT Rocky would have the stamina, Heart, Chin, mental toughness, all around toughness.

If you look at who they fought, Tyson did box better opponents.

Tyson fought boxers with an average record of (W) 22.2758 - (L) 3.5 - (D) 0.3 and Rocky fought boxers with an average record of (W) 29.7 - (L) 10.16 - (D) 1.8.

Tyson fought 33 different boxers 36 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another. Marciano fought 13 different boxers 16 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another.


Tyson hit very hard. He had 22 first round knockouts and if you count Peter McNeeley, it would be 23 in his 58 bouts.

Rocky had 11 first round knockouts in 49 bouts.

In Tyson's 52 bouts where he either won or fought a NC, he fought an average of 3.365 rounds, if you count the other bouts which he lost, he fought an average of 3.74 Rounds.

In Marciano's 49 bouts, he averaged 4.9387755 rounds.


AND Tyson did this against better opponents.

So if you go by this, I would have to say that Tyson hit harder, was more aggressive, a much faster starter BUT Marciano had a better chin, heart, stamina, and mental & all around toughness.

If I was a betting man, I would bet on Tyson because Rocky wouldn't back up any and that would be his down fall. If it lasted beyond the 5th round, I would have to go with Marciano, BUT I just can't see him staying away that long to make that happen.

I agree with what your saying and I think Marciano could last 5 rounds with Tyson, but he'd have to get up off the floor a few times in order to do so. I think another important factor in if they fought would be when the fight took place. In Tyson's time then it's more likely the referee stops the fight if Marciano were in trouble, if they fought in Marciano's era then there is a good chance of Marciano being allowed to continue. What if they fought back in the early 1900's then unless Marciano is cleanly knocked out then he is even more likely to win. It's funny when we discuss who would beat who, I think we assume if we had a time machine and could make it happen it would be now, or sometimes we say if Marciano were around today. If I had a time machine I'd like too see the fighters fight each other in different eras like today and early 1900's when fights were allowed to go on a lot longer.

[Brassangel]

I can't see Marciano, Dempsey, or Frazier beating Tyson, as they are all come-ahead fighters. I guess I think of Marvis Frazier, Peter McNeeley, etc., and how those fighters turned out. I know, I know, the first three listed are 100000000% better than the latter two, but Tyson still gains the same advantages:

He had a lot of leverage in short, quick punches, and his weight advantage would allow him to knock them back with almost every shot. Marciano and Frazier were notoriously slow starters, which would mean that they get muscled into the corners by a bigger, more aggressive Tyson early on. Even IF they survived to the later rounds, they would be very hurt, possibly too hurt to actually mount a comeback against a still game Tyson. Dempsey spent a lot of time bending at the waist, which would probably open up many uppercut opportunities, and again, Tyson's size would be able to force openings and angles that would make things difficult for Dempsey, who would therefore tire faster than Mike.

Mike's size advantage and early-fight aggression would probably tire the other three fighters if they didn't get KO'd.

As to the Louis vs. Ali thing: Yes, Ali was quick, and Louis showed some (though minimal) trouble against a few swift opponents. That doesn't absolutely prove 2+2, however, as defeating speed is a matter of timing. Plus, Ali had a far worse defense than the fighters with speed Louis faced, and Joe would figure that out. The primary reason Frazier beat Ali's speed (Frazier was slower than Louis, and didn't have incredibly quick hands which Louis did possess), was because he eventually timed punches to the right side of Ali's unguarded face when Ali threw his own punches. Yes, Ali lost a step during the layoff, but Louis had surperior speed to Frazier, and better accuracy, and better use of both hands; all of which make up for the marginal gain in Ali's speed pre-layoff. Ali wins the early rounds with quick jabs and lead-rights, but Louis would start to time the punches, backing Ali up, forcing him to change his game plan, and leaving his body open for an assault. Louis had quick, explosive punches that were laser accurate, and he would finish the job Frazier couldn't if he had Ali wobbly in the 11th or 15th. This doesn't mean that Louis beats Ali, just that it is far more likely than people assume. We must erase the pressupposed assumptions we've created for ourselves regarding Ali and remember that it's man vs. man in there. It's taken me a long time to do this, and I still want to throw the "Ali's too fast!" cliche out there from time to time, but it's simply not realistic.

[hhascup]

I agree with what your saying and I think Marciano could last 5 rounds with Tyson, but he'd have to get up off the floor a few times in order to do so. I think another important factor in if they fought would be when the fight took place. In Tyson's time then it's more likely the referee stops the fight if Marciano were in trouble, if they fought in Marciano's era then there is a good chance of Marciano being allowed to continue. What if they fought back in the early 1900's then unless Marciano is cleanly knocked out then he is even more likely to win. It's funny when we discuss who would beat who, I think we assume if we had a time machine and could make it happen it would be now, or sometimes we say if Marciano were around today. If I had a time machine I'd like too see the fighters fight each other in different eras like today and early 1900's when fights were allowed to go on a lot longer.

I just can't see Rocky who never backed up getting past the early rounds. Tyson was much faster, stronger, remember he would out weigh Rocky by over 30 pounds. Thats like saying Sugar Ray Robinson at 160 pounds would have beaten Rocky at 185 pounds, or Duran at 135-140 beating Robinson at 155-160. I just can't see it.

Just look at the STATS I have on both Tyson and Marciano, that should give you a good idea who punched harder, who fought the better opponents, etc.

[hhascup]

I can't see Marciano, Dempsey, or Frazier beating Tyson, as they are all come-ahead fighters. I guess I think of Marvis Frazier, Peter McNeeley, etc., and how those fighters turned out. I know, I know, the first three listed are 100000000% better than the latter two, but Tyson still gains the same advantages:

He had a lot of leverage in short, quick punches, and his weight advantage would allow him to knock them back with almost every shot. Marciano and Frazier were notoriously slow starters, which would mean that they get muscled into the corners by a bigger, more aggressive Tyson early on. Even IF they survived to the later rounds, they would be very hurt, possibly too hurt to actually mount a comeback against a still game Tyson. Dempsey spent a lot of time bending at the waist, which would probably open up many uppercut opportunities, and again, Tyson's size would be able to force openings and angles that would make things difficult for Dempsey, who would therefore tire faster than Mike.

Mike's size advantage and early-fight aggression would probably tire the other three fighters if they didn't get KO'd.

As to the Louis vs. Ali thing: Yes, Ali was quick, and Louis showed some (though minimal) trouble against a few swift opponents. That doesn't absolutely prove 2+2, however, as defeating speed is a matter of timing. Plus, Ali had a far worse defense than the fighters with speed Louis faced, and Joe would figure that out. The primary reason Frazier beat Ali's speed (Frazier was slower than Louis, and didn't have incredibly quick hands which Louis did possess), was because he eventually timed punches to the right side of Ali's unguarded face when Ali threw his own punches. Yes, Ali lost a step during the layoff, but Louis had surperior speed to Frazier, and better accuracy, and better use of both hands; all of which make up for the marginal gain in Ali's speed pre-layoff. Ali wins the early rounds with quick jabs and lead-rights, but Louis would start to time the punches, backing Ali up, forcing him to change his game plan, and leaving his body open for an assault. Louis had quick, explosive punches that were laser accurate, and he would finish the job Frazier couldn't if he had Ali wobbly in the 11th or 15th. This doesn't mean that Louis beats Ali, just that it is far more likely than people assume. We must erase the pressupposed assumptions we've created for ourselves regarding Ali and remember that it's man vs. man in there. It's taken me a long time to do this, and I still want to throw the "Ali's too fast!" cliche out there from time to time, but it's simply not realistic.

I agree with most of what you said, until you got to the Louis Ali thing.

Frazier was not slower then Louis, in fact he was faster. He never stopped, his punch output was much Greater too. Frazier was much more aggressive then Louis. If you think Frazier was slower then Louis, then you must think Tyson was too.

If your comparing the 1st Frazier bout then you should also compare Robinson with Ralph Tiger Jones.

Ali was out of boxing for over 3-1/2 years, had 2 fights against top 10 contenders then lost to Frazier.

Robinson was out of boxing for 2-1/2 years, had 1 bout then fought Jones who lost his last 5 bouts before boxing Robinson.

Just one more point, Ali couldn't even box exhibitions during that time.

The Ali Frazier 1 wasn't a onesided bout, 1 judge had it 9-6 and the ref, Arthur Mercante had it 8-6-1

The Robinson Jones bout was a blow out, with Jones winning all but 2 rounds on 1 card, all but 1 round on another card and Robinson was shutout on the 3rd card. To make matters worse, Jones fought Bobo Olson just a couple of months later and everyone gave Olson every round.

As far as Ali's defense, Nat Fleischer rated Ali's defense 3rd all-time and that is all divisions. When Ali was at his best, he was very hard to hit. Just go to the 2 minute mark of this exh. against Dokes and this is when he was passed his prime and out of shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a119w...elated&search=

[-CANE-]

I just can't see Rocky who never backed up getting past the early rounds. Tyson was much faster, stronger, remember he would out weigh Rocky by over 30 pounds. Thats like saying Sugar Ray Robinson at 160 pounds would have beaten Rocky at 185 pounds, or Duran at 135-140 beating Robinson at 155-160. I just can't see it.

Just look at the STATS I have on both Tyson and Marciano, that should give you a good idea who punched harder, who fought the better opponents, etc.

I know I've looked at your stats and everything points to a Tyson win, but of the 3 we were talking about I see Rocky as having the best chance of victory. Marciano had never met anyone like Tyson that's for sure and while I agree that there is a good chance Tyson KO's him (more likely ref stops contest) there is also the possibility of Marciano coming back and grinding him down, despite the size difference I still say he has a better chance than Dempsey and Frazier. Marciano was one of the toughest sons of bitches to become Heavyweight Champion and Tyson would have never met anyone that tough before. Also had they fought in the 1900's Jack Johnsons era, who is more likely to still be standing after 20 rounds, Marciano probably. So while in all probability Tyson would win all I'm trying to say is it's not a for gone conclusion and there is a chance of Marciano winning.

[hhascup]

I know I've looked at your stats and everything points to a Tyson win, but of the 3 we were talking about I see Rocky as having the best chance of victory. Marciano had never met anyone like Tyson that's for sure and while I agree that there is a good chance Tyson KO's him (more likely ref stops contest) there is also the possibility of Marciano coming back and grinding him down, despite the size difference I still say he has a better chance than Dempsey and Frazier. Marciano was one of the toughest sons of bitches to become Heavyweight Champion and Tyson would have never met anyone that tough before. Also had they fought in the 1900's Jack Johnsons era, who is more likely to still be standing after 20 rounds, Marciano probably. So while in all probability Tyson would win all I'm trying to say is it's not a for gone conclusion and there is a chance of Marciano winning.

I have to disagree that Rocky would stand the best chance. If Rocky was the same size as Tyson it would be hard enough, BUT 30 pounds would be too much for sure. I would say out of the 3, Rocky would have the hardest time.

[hhascup]

Here's what one Boxing Historian thinks about Rocky:

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html