Ray Leonard overrated

[Hawkins]

You misappropriated the meaning of what I said in the original context. I wasn't agreeing per say, I was only saying he made a valid point. Especially regarding rematches and the like. I always liked Ray Leonard. But I guess I should have made it a little clearer regarding the point I was referring instead of lumping it all into one. My bad.

But some of the points LRR raised do ask some worthwhile questions. Well one in particular and thats the question of a Hagler rematch. Why didn't Ray grant one, especially considering it was such a close fight? Hagler was man enough to face Ray when he came roaring out of retirement wanting a fight, why couldn't Ray turn around and do the same?

Plus there was always questions about why he didn't fight certain guys - but realistically you can't hold that against him considering that same argument can be leveled against many fighters.

It's something thats always bugged me, do I think it takes away from the fighter he was? Not really. But then again I don't put him as highly in regards to P4P status as most

Didn't mean for my rebuttal to be as harsh as it sounded, just wanted to point out that despite what differences you may have with LRR he raises some valid points. Thats all.

[wpink1]

Hawk I know your direct with your comments. No issue taken. Yes Leonard should have granted a Rematch with Hagler. I think Ray knew that he had nothing in that fight, and was surprised that even with what he did not have, he still could land against hagler.

Even though i think that Ray won the fight, and I believe had they had fought in 1982 ray would have had a much much easier time with Hagler,,I think had they rematched, hagler would have destroyed Ray simply because the 1987 Ray did not have the speed, stamina, nothing like he use to have, which he would need to beat a Hagler that would be seeking revenge.

[Mike Tyson77]

um.................Id say Sugar Ray Lenoard is a living legend. He made more combacks than I dont know what.

[Hawkins]

Hawk I know your direct with your comments. No issue taken. Yes Leonard should have granted a Rematch with Hagler. I think Ray knew that he had nothing in that fight, and was surprised that even with what he did not have, he still could land against hagler.

Even though i think that Ray won the fight, and I believe had they had fought in 1982 ray would have had a much much easier time with Hagler,,I think had they rematched, hagler would have destroyed Ray simply because the 1987 Ray did not have the speed, stamina, nothing like he use to have, which he would need to beat a Hagler that would be seeking revenge.

Like I said in earlier post, I have always thought Hagler gave the fight away by trying to be something other than what he was. I was shocked when Hagler came out like he did. I figured we would see Hagler come out quick and agressively press Ray.

My grandpa and I traveled to another city to watch the fight on closed circuit and I remember just being astonished out how passive Marvin was in those early rounds. Shocked me.

Anyway, not to take anything away from Ray Leonard, I think Hagler's faultly strategy lost him the fight rather than putting it on the doorstep of Leonard's greatness.

Thats my take anyway

[LondonRingRules]

I believe had they had fought in 1982 ray would have had a much much easier time with Hagler,,

** It might help if you actually studied your subject. In 1982 everyone and their mothers were standing in line trying to fight in the Leonard sweepstakes, including a certain Mr. Hagler.

Ray instead fought a minor journeyman type of contender and retired. Obviously not feeling exactly in "the pink" as a fighter at that point.

My facts are straight BTW. Thread is about Ray being overrated, but like is typical, no rating is provided. I happen to know he's IBRO's 2nd ranked welter. It doesn't take a crystal ball to understand that retired fighters tend to drop in status as their generation dies off and newer modern types replace them with their own favorites. It takes a true great to hold his status like Robinson and Louis have held theirs. Guys in the biz like Kellerman were ranking Roy and even Zab over greats like that for example.

Ray certainly had talent out the kazoo, but so did Benitez, Hagler, Hearns, and Duran. And with that talent, there was not much to separate Ray when he fought Benitez, he was unable to return the beating Duran gave him in the first fight, Hearns also ahead and punishing Ray before Leonard got creative, and only a disputed split decision over Hagler, so how much better can he said to have been given they all had full careers and Ray an abbreviated one?

Add in Benitez/Hagler beat Duran more comprehensively, Hearns more emphatically, Hearns beat Benitez more comprehensively, and Hagler beat Hearns more emphatically.

Seems to me that regardless of where you rank Ray, the other 4 would have to be right with him. That might be a little much for a fan to swallow, but you seem to have acknowleged that he should fought each of the four again, and that his career was very short overall.

I don't really care to rank fighters other than maybe the first 2 or so, and I really wouldn't object to Ray being ranked the 2nd welt ever. It's when he appears in those greatest p4p lists with true greats who had full careers that I object. He couldn't even match Pryor and Sanchez's perfect title records in their abbreviated careers.

If I'm around in 30-40 yrs from now, maybe we can hook up and discuss. I'd bet his ranking is down and you have different opinions. Still a great fighter, it's just how we dice up his career that is in question.

[wpink1]

** It might help if you actually studied your subject. In 1982 everyone and their mothers were standing in line trying to fight in the Leonard sweepstakes, including a certain Mr. Hagler.*****


London Rules..one thing you may learn debating with me is that I KNOW my stuff regarding Leonard etc..... You bring up up very very very one sided versions of the truth, and leave out the facts..Which is funny.

Hmmm let me factually destroy your post, however I will say this, it is not by any means unintelligent. It is, but it is one sided and leaves out very very important information that, I have been led to believe needs to included when discussing an issue. Its like saying Ali beat Frazier twice, with out discussing that Frazier beat Ali the first time.

Here are the facts my friend.

1982.... Hmmmm

Ray in 1979 clearly beat and stopped Wilfred Benetiz. Anyone who argues that is smoking. Also Benetiz was a much more experiences and championship tested fighter, who was undefeated at the time had two belts and was in his prime. Ray was just coming up, and fought a very very cautios fight, very seldomly coming in to close the show on Benetiz earlier on when several times he had Benitez stuneed and hurt ( not severly) and up against the ropes.

1980....You say Duran gave Leonard a Beating. Hmmm Can you tell everyone on here the final score's..... Maybe I can help you...Duran won by 1 pt on 2 scorecards, and 2 on another. Duran won the fight, no debate, but beating..You have got to be smoking. He hurt Leonard in the 2nd round, and rocked him in the 4th. AFter the 4th rounds, according to the very scorecards that you are claiming shows a "beating" (Hmmm by a total of 4pts between 3 cards).. Leonard beat duran 7 rounds to 4 on 2 cards and pretty much even on the 3rd. What fight are you referring to that Duran put a beating on Leonard. Are you merely confusing Duran imposing his style on Leonard in fact leonard fighting Durans styles, which he did so willingly. It was a tough back and forth fight, that could have went either way. Had Leonard won the 1st round which it is clear if you look at the tapes..he did, he gets the decision. Now I will say that Duran gave away the last round, and thus could have some impact on the scores too, but my no means was this a beating. Many simply say this, because they never saw ray in a back and forth fight like that, different style.

Now Duran 2...No Ray did not return the beating, but he was clearly outboxing Duran, and frusterating duran. and hmmmm Duran quit. I will not dig into how Ray was starting to really plant his feet and land harder shots in round 8, you can see it for your self. However, what is evident is that Ray caught Duran almost everytime he tried to bumrush him into the ropes. Was it as great of a fight at the 1st fight, hell no. However did Ray outbox duran...hell yeh..and this is Boxing not UFC...So boxing counts just as much as the brawling tactics that were on display in the 1st fight.

Hearns.....Lets me see. If you know boxing..or boxed, you will know that for a short man to outbox a taller man with speed power and much longer reach, it will take him getting inside..meaning, almost always he will not outbox him. Roy jones met his fate with a taller man, Mosley with a taller man, you dont see Tyson outboxing taller men.he gets inside and blasts away,,someitimes take away the body...etc...many different strategies, but outboxing is very seldomly the route. So we come to Ray. Fans like you will say things about the fight, with out understanding the fight. Ray fought the strategy he was told, and the strategy that he had to..to win. Go purchase a copy of the sports illlistrated before the fight....It will shock you that Dundee say Ray would outslug Hearns, and Steward said Hearns would outbox Leonard. They both know....It is not rocket science. Also Ray wanted to stay on the outside for the first couple of rounds to "zap" tommys strenght. A strategy that he Dundee, and Randy Shields who had previously went the distance with Tommy decided upon, when realizing Tommy's strenght was not the same as the rounds progressed. So in analyzing the fight, you should realize Ray hurt Tommy each time they had meaning ful exchanges starting the 6th round. Yes Ray was behind on point, but had the scored the fight accuratly it would have been anyones fight going into the 15th, as the 6th and 7th and 13th should have been 2 pt rounds for ry...he clearly won the 8th.....and the 14th ws a 2pt round....Do your math.... 131-131....Do your research also...Immediately...Immediately after the fight Dundee and the Nevada state boxign commisssion agreed that the rounds should have been scored 2 pt rounds..Thus you have seen a lot more 2 pts rounds sinnce..in fact one of the worst two point rounds leonard got the benefit of in the 2nd hearns fight..round 12...that was clearly a 10-9 round.

1982...Ray had a detached retina..My friend..and if you know boxing hstory, you will realize that back then, it was a much worse prognosis than it is today. In fact, Pryor, Sugar Ray seals, Greb, etc..others have had serious permanent eye damage from continuing to fight. Ray was a mutli multi millioniar and it was public knowledge that had he continued ot fight with the gloves they had at that time, and the technology they had, he risked blindness. Now he was told later it was okay but at first he was told blindness was a risk. He then spoke about this on beyound the glory, when he mentioned he wanted to fight, but he was always being reminded by the community, family friends etc..that he should simply leave it alone..So he did, but..he came back and then fought hagler after 5 years with one fight, and to have some people on sights who know nothing about boxing sit a home and belitte the major accomplishment that is...To come back to fight Hagler a figher who has never lost in 10 years, stopped all contenders except one..at the highest level of the game,,,move up 2 weight classes and win...whether is was controversial or not,,WOW.....

So yes all these fithers are close, but Ray is the only on who beat all of them, and he did so in great fashion. Some were wars, some he stopped, some he boxed, some he slugged,,some he used his head, some he made quit...but he beat all of them.

[Jim Jeffries]

** It might help if you actually studied your subject. In 1982 everyone and their mothers were standing in line trying to fight in the Leonard sweepstakes, including a certain Mr. Hagler.*****


London Rules..one thing you may learn debating with me is that I KNOW my stuff regarding Leonard etc..... You bring up up very very very one sided versions of the truth, and leave out the facts..Which is funny.

Hmmm let me factually destroy your post, however I will say this, it is not by any means unintelligent. It is, but it is one sided and leaves out very very important information that, I have been led to believe needs to included when discussing an issue. Its like saying Ali beat Frazier twice, with out discussing that Frazier beat Ali the first time.

Here are the facts my friend.

1982.... Hmmmm

Ray in 1979 clearly beat and stopped Wilfred Benetiz. Anyone who argues that is smoking. Also Benetiz was a much more experiences and championship tested fighter, who was undefeated at the time had two belts and was in his prime. Ray was just coming up, and fought a very very cautios fight, very seldomly coming in to close the show on Benetiz earlier on when several times he had Benitez stuneed and hurt ( not severly) and up against the ropes.

1980....You say Duran gave Leonard a Beating. Hmmm Can you tell everyone on here the final score's..... Maybe I can help you...Duran won by 1 pt on 2 scorecards, and 2 on another. Duran won the fight, no debate, but beating..You have got to be smoking. He hurt Leonard in the 2nd round, and rocked him in the 4th. AFter the 4th rounds, according to the very scorecards that you are claiming shows a "beating" (Hmmm by a total of 4pts between 3 cards).. Leonard beat duran 7 rounds to 4 on 2 cards and pretty much even on the 3rd. What fight are you referring to that Duran put a beating on Leonard. Are you merely confusing Duran imposing his style on Leonard in fact leonard fighting Durans styles, which he did so willingly. It was a tough back and forth fight, that could have went either way. Had Leonard won the 1st round which it is clear if you look at the tapes..he did, he gets the decision. Now I will say that Duran gave away the last round, and thus could have some impact on the scores too, but my no means was this a beating. Many simply say this, because they never saw ray in a back and forth fight like that, different style.

Now Duran 2...No Ray did not return the beating, but he was clearly outboxing Duran, and frusterating duran. and hmmmm Duran quit. I will not dig into how Ray was starting to really plant his feet and land harder shots in round 8, you can see it for your self. However, what is evident is that Ray caught Duran almost everytime he tried to bumrush him into the ropes. Was it as great of a fight at the 1st fight, hell no. However did Ray outbox duran...hell yeh..and this is Boxing not UFC...So boxing counts just as much as the brawling tactics that were on display in the 1st fight.

Hearns.....Lets me see. If you know boxing..or boxed, you will know that for a short man to outbox a taller man with speed power and much longer reach, it will take him getting inside..meaning, almost always he will not outbox him. Roy jones met his fate with a taller man, Mosley with a taller man, you dont see Tyson outboxing taller men.he gets inside and blasts away,,someitimes take away the body...etc...many different strategies, but outboxing is very seldomly the route. So we come to Ray. Fans like you will say things about the fight, with out understanding the fight. Ray fought the strategy he was told, and the strategy that he had to..to win. Go purchase a copy of the sports illlistrated before the fight....It will shock you that Dundee say Ray would outslug Hearns, and Steward said Hearns would outbox Leonard. They both know....It is not rocket science. Also Ray wanted to stay on the outside for the first couple of rounds to "zap" tommys strenght. A strategy that he Dundee, and Randy Shields who had previously went the distance with Tommy decided upon, when realizing Tommy's strenght was not the same as the rounds progressed. So in analyzing the fight, you should realize Ray hurt Tommy each time they had meaning ful exchanges starting the 6th round. Yes Ray was behind on point, but had the scored the fight accuratly it would have been anyones fight going into the 15th, as the 6th and 7th and 13th should have been 2 pt rounds for ry...he clearly won the 8th.....and the 14th ws a 2pt round....Do your math.... 131-131....Do your research also...Immediately...Immediately after the fight Dundee and the Nevada state boxign commisssion agreed that the rounds should have been scored 2 pt rounds..Thus you have seen a lot more 2 pts rounds sinnce..in fact one of the worst two point rounds leonard got the benefit of in the 2nd hearns fight..round 12...that was clearly a 10-9 round.

1982...Ray had a detached retina..My friend..and if you know boxing hstory, you will realize that back then, it was a much worse prognosis than it is today. In fact, Pryor, Sugar Ray seals, Greb, etc..others have had serious permanent eye damage from continuing to fight. Ray was a mutli multi millioniar and it was public knowledge that had he continued ot fight with the gloves they had at that time, and the technology they had, he risked blindness. Now he was told later it was okay but at first he was told blindness was a risk. He then spoke about this on beyound the glory, when he mentioned he wanted to fight, but he was always being reminded by the community, family friends etc..that he should simply leave it alone..So he did, but..he came back and then fought hagler after 5 years with one fight, and to have some people on sights who know nothing about boxing sit a home and belitte the major accomplishment that is...To come back to fight Hagler a figher who has never lost in 10 years, stopped all contenders except one..at the highest level of the game,,,move up 2 weight classes and win...whether is was controversial or not,,WOW.....

So yes all these fithers are close, but Ray is the only on who beat all of them, and he did so in great fashion. Some were wars, some he stopped, some he boxed, some he slugged,,some he used his head, some he made quit...but he beat all of them.

Good post. Only one to beat all three of the others. I would have liked to see a Hagler rematch where Hagler didn't get screwed so bad in the negotiations, this time smaller ring, lighter gloves, etc, but oh well.

[wpink1]

thanks,,,,I am waiting on London Rules to post his researched response.

[LondonRingRules]

1982...Ray had a detached retina..My friend..and if you know boxing hstory, you will realize that back then, it was a much worse prognosis than it is today.

** Bingo.

The important thing is now that you realize it, and maybe will make the connection to your baseless assertion that Ray could've handled Hagler more easily in 82 to make the appropriate correction.

Facts are in mid 81 Ray held the jr mid WBA belt and could've fought Hagler at that time IF he felt up to it. He did not, instead going to Hearns who is the first one to have gotten to Ray's eyes.

It's obvious you big up Ray over the rest of the big four of this era, alternately touting the class of his competition using their names while ignoring that other than some disputed win advantage, there is almost no advantage in the total rounds contested and very little to separate him from them in their primes.

However, they had more productive career records with more title wins save Benitez who was one short of Ray thanks to Ray's last title win over a long past it Duran.

If you wish to artificially boost up Ray, fine, you do have a degree of support right now as he was a very popular fighter and still has a degree of clout in the business and connected enthusiasts. Just don't try to justify to me he's that much better than the others of his era. You can't by the records and we will just have to disagree.

[wpink1]

london rules....I do see why some have said you got kicked off of Cyberboxingzone. You bring nothing but biased pretty much a waste of cyberspace post.

"It's obvious you big up Ray over the rest of the big four of this era, alternately touting the class of his competition using their names while ignoring that other than some disputed win advantage, there is almost no advantage in the total rounds contested and very little to separate him from them in their primes."

What is that supposed to mean.... No one has ever said Ray was "that" much better than anyone. Pound per pound you have a strong argument that Duran was the best of the bunch. However my statement was that at Ray leonard beat all four so IMO he is better. Whether by wins, rounds whatever you want to call it. I honestly have never heard such a weak arguement against an issue. If you want to debate. Please do much better than that!!

As far as boost Ray. I dont have too. What you fail to realize and probably have to go see a counselor to help you get over this very fact, is that the quality of Rays career is as good as almost anyone that ever boxed. Hmmm 5 or 6 Titles in 5 weight classes, the first to do so. Beating 4 Top-tier All time pound per pounders. # undefeated champions. Unifiying the belt at Welterweight, beating a top pound per pounder at middleweight after 5 years off with only 1 fight, and keep this in mind, Ray was a natural welterweight never having fought at middleweight before. So those are facts, so if you somehow think a fighter who also won a gold, and was th e1st to eclipse the 100million mark in earnings, brought back the attention to the lower weight divisions along with duran, hagler, hearns, pryor, then my friend you know very little about boxing. Leonard did it himself, so much that most of your fighters around that weight class today immulate him in boxing stye or business dealings. DlH, Jones, Mayweather, Meldrick Taylor....

I think your hate for Leoanrd consumes your thinking which follow through to your very weak and not well thought or researched post's. Maybe you can stay on this board with that garbage, but on CyberboxingZone you would and must have been eatin alive.

We will disagree...but live with this facts, duran 1-2 vs leonard, Benitez, 0-1 got ko'd by Leonard, Hearns 1-1 ( I will say 1 victory as we all know he beat Ray) 1 ko by Ray in their primes, Hagler 0-1 vs Ray, Kalule 0-1 vs ray got stopped, Lalond 0-1 vs ray got stopped...Took ray until he was 35 to solidly beaten soundly vs a much younger and very good fighter at jr middle hmmm.