Ray Leonard overrated

[Hawkins]

** Benitez, Duran, Hearns and then Hagler, all first tier HOFers gives his career the gloss for a good historical photo, but let's sharpen the focus a bit.

Benitez stopped on his feet, cut slightly, but unhurt with ten sec left in the bout. No immediate rematch, Leonard instead chosing a hometown type bout against an overmatched Davey Green. I know the cards claim Ray was several points ahead, but I thought the fight very defensively waged and difficult to score. Only Ray's late KD of Benitez any kind of edge. Nor did Ray challenge at 154 where Benitez immediately grabbed a belt and beat Duran more comprehensively and without any controversy than did Leonard.

Duran. Ray lost the first comprehensively and only won the 2nd when Duran showed up overfed, disinterested and quit because he had to go take a dump. The immediate rubbermatch was sought desperately by Duran but dismissed by Leonard even though it would've generated substantially more money than Ray's next title defense against Larry Bonds. Again, the question arises how much more substantial Leonard really was over Duran who was obviously struggling with weight and discipline problems from that point forward.

Hearns, some may claim premature stoppage, I didn't and still don't. Tommy's body language says it all. Still, a fight Ray was losing comprehensively, and no rematch which would have generated considerably more funds than Ray's next defense against Bruce Finch.

So at this point Ray is 3-1 against three first tier HOFers with only one clear cut victory and no rematches of his wins, instead pursuing lower paying defenses against journeymen type contenders.

I won't bore the board with the Hagler analysis. Credit to Ray for showing up in shape and making it to the cards, but no rematch, again, very deliberately and with great fanfare avoiding Marvin.

An exciting two years, but upon reflection, really, just two years of championship viablity in a great era, but not particulary more distinguished than the four he beat. I consider the way Salvador Sanchez, Pryor, Hagler, Chavez, Arguello, guys like that who worked their way up the boxing chain the hard way without benefit of turning pro with a multimillion dollar contract more significant to boxing history. It seems that sense of wealth and entitlement allowed Leonard to pick and choose and turn down fabulously wealthy but dangerous bouts becuase Ray was already set for life and was just looking for some frilly borderwork for his historical glossy.

Good points.

[SABBATH]

Only Ray's late KD of Benitez any kind of edge. Nor did Ray challenge at 154 where Benitez immediately grabbed a belt and beat Duran more comprehensively and without any controversy than did Leonard.

Miss Roberta has gone senile.

Leonard floored Benitez twice and also picked up the 154lb belt from undefeated Ayub Kalule.

Of course little Miss Texas always gets her facts wrong when trying to wax poetic on something she knows nothing of.

[Hawkins]

Miss Roberta has gone senile.

Leonard floored Benitez twice and also picked up the 154lb belt from undefeated Ayub Kalule.

Of course little Miss Texas always gets her facts wrong when trying to wax poetic on something she knows nothing of.

He does have make a good point, though.

[LondonRingRules]

Miss Roberta has gone senile.

** I see Ozzie Sr. has finally allowed Junior back on his computer after doing his mandatory at the local JD detention facility.

Alas, your minders have been playing around with grownup stuff and not protecting your backside on the goofy Tyson thread you started. Many others came and ravaged your name and masculinity with impugnity, which was a good thing because I got to see where we first got tangled, which was quite amusing and explains why I had forgotten you, having laughed myself silly.

Now, here I was having nice civil informative historical sessions with Hawkins, Pink, Henry, and Hurricane over a variety of subjects, and you show up like a turd in a punchbowl to spoil the party.

Gonna have to find Oz Sr. email address and request that he put you in an electroshock collar when your minders give you your daily walk so you don't run amuck befouling the local landscape with your spontaneous discharges...

[SABBATH]

Alas, your minders have been playing around with grownup stuff and not protecting your backside on the goofy Tyson thread you started. Many others came and ravaged your name and masculinity with impugnity, which was a good thing because I got to see where we first got tangled, which was quite amusing and explains why I had forgotten you, having laughed myself silly.

Roberta,

There's a reason you got punted from CBZ. It's because you're an idiot whose distorted views on fighters are an embarrassment.

Feel free to knock Leonard for his 7-1 title record (1st career) and his 12 round negotiated fight with Hagler.

Seems to me you can't hike yer dress up quick enough and bend over for the Manassa Mauler who took several years to compile a 7-2 title fight record with the two Tunney fights mere 10 rounders. Even Lil' Arthur at 37 was willing to schedule a defence for 45 rounds in the Havana sun. Ten rounds for the heavyweight Championship is a joke. Not once but twice.

Guess ol' Dempsey didn't want Gene to mess up his new nose job.

[wpink1]

london rules...Hawk...what a one sided twist of the fights...One sides and lacking all the facts. Duran beat Leonard by 4 points between 3 scorecards ina fight the ray leonard "elected" to not box..Ray never had the ring cut off on him, etc..Ray simply went toe to toe. Even in that 1st fight when he box Duran in rounds 5-7 duran became frusterated and started to mock ray because he hated Ray's movement and could not hit him when ray elected to box and keep the fight in the center of the ring. I am talking about the 1st fight. How about telling how in the hell durna was given round one in that fight, when he did not land one single head shot. Not ONe! Go to you tube and tell us where he landed a single head shot. Had that round went to Leonard,,,Hmm he wins that fight outright on 2 judges scorecards and a draw on the other...Hmmm that is how close that fight was.

Duran 2...Another joke and one sided story telling twist that you post. Duran is a professional fighter, one of the best of all times,,,so it is Ray leonard fault that duran did not live up to his part...I hear repeatedly these statments that Duran was fat...hmmm he was 147 for the fight..wasnt he. How about tell everyone how duran balloned generally after all his fights,,and had to struggle to make weight at 135....now he had to get down to 147...with is much easier,,and how is this any different between the other 70 fights that he fought. Another Duran excuse giver. Duran simply was getting beaten and humilated and instead of being given a gift strategy by Ray Leonard as he was in the 1st fight when ray elected to go toe to toe..this time he had to box with ray..and he was hit by combinations almost everytime he attempted to rush in. It was not a weak or fat duran..It simply was Ray leonard utilized his skills to out box Duran this time.....

Something that Duran fans seeminly refuse to admit is that after round 4 of the 1st fight even on the judges score card..Leonard owned Duran. Mathmatically speaking if durna was up 4-0 on every scorecard then only won by 1 pt on two judges card and 2 on the othr,,,then leonard was clearly ahead in the 2nd fight,,,then a white wash in the third...Hmmmmm help me understand how it is not difficult to understand who is the better boxer head to head..Also Duran lost ot benetiz, go stopped by hearns and lost to hagler..Ray beat all of these three.

Now before we hear from duran fans about the bogus issue of well duran was not at his peak, or he had to move up in weight and was not at his most effective weight ( I agree with that)...However Duran fans..do not expect others to review Mayweather's career Mosley Dlh etc...at weight classes north of their original wieght, and only given Duran the benefit of looking at what he did at weight classes south of 147....Duran moved up at 29...hmmm so did mayweather Mosley etc... so lets judge Duran the same way we judge others...and finally the 70 fighters that duran beat at lightweight...hmmm Buchanon, Dejesus, Ernesto Marcil (24--2-1),and Kobayashi (had 9 losses).hmmmm these are the best 4 victories of his lightweight career, then Sugar Ray leonard at 147 when Ray "elected to not use his boxign skills for 12 of the 15 rounds...Hmmmm.. Who is over rated.

As for Thomas Hearns..comprehensivly beating Leonard. Hearns was outpointing Ray. Did you bother to discuss that every singly meaningful exchange between the two of them, Hearns was hurt and backed up. Was this mentioned. Was it mentioned that Ray hurt and almost stopped hearns in rounds 6 -7 and 13 before ultimately stopping him in round 14. Was it mentioned that Tommy Hearns was 6'1 with 78 in reach, was a very fast welter and and had probably the best right hand ever in that division,,and Ray and Dundee said before the fight that boxing hearns would not be the best thing to do as ray and Tommy were very familiar with each other having sparred together before in the Kronk Gym ealrier on in their career, and the fact that tommy was a great great amateur Boxer not slugger...He learned power once he became professonal. Did you bother to mention that it is almost ludicrious to think that Ray would out box hearns,,based on the physical mismatch that hearns posed for most welters including Leonard. Did you mention that. It is funny reading post by fight fans that know nothing aobut the sport and get on these threads and say one sided garbage. Hearns was outpointing Leonard...did Ray get 10-8 rounds in round 6 and 7..hmmmm Rounds 13...Round 14 would have been a 10-8 round..and who knows what round 15 would have been...However you do the math had the judges scored the rounds 10-8 as the nevada state boxing commission and Dundee met after the fight and discussed this very issue.

Hmmm Benetiz...a two time champion was outclassed and outboxed dropped twice by a cautios and very green Sugar Ray Leonard. Yes it was stopped early, but Ray would have won easily anyway..So what is the point.

hagler...Ray out of boxing for 5 years except for 1 fight, Moved up two weight classes and beat a fighter who had not lost in 10 years, had stopped ever challenger (active challengers) except for one. Also the ray leonard that faced Hagler was a very slow version of himself if compared to 81.. He also had not of the great stamina that he had back when he fought the 15 round classic against Duran or dropped Benetiz in round 15 and brought it to the champion in the last round and it was stopped.

Hmmmm So Ray leonard being over rated. Yes I agree he had a short careeer. but in that short career he accomplished more that most of the all time greats that you talk about and beat better fighters thatn the almost any other fighter that ever lived. 4 all time top greats. You want to throw up *'s,,,,etc... Hmmmm it is funny that one could say this about the hagler fight and it was hagler who was the middlewieght champion and active and he should have stopped Ray. Now I will give hagler the same benefit of the doubt that I give ray..they both had ****** game plans in big fights..Hagler should have came into that fight southpaw from the jump..but this false accusation that he should have just tore after ray. When have you ever seen hagler do this or initiate that. Before you jump to the terminal and type Hearns..It was hearns that came right after hagler and hagler in his usual counterpunching style came right back.. Hearns could have tried to jab and box, but he didnnt. When hagler faced a fighter that tried to boxe him ,,, he barely beat him..that fighter was duran in 1983.

So again your point about rematches is true, but you cant knock the victories he had because there was not a rematch. or an immediate rematch..and oh yes to say he was scared to face Duran a 3rd time but then face hearns who was 32-0 with 30 kos hmmmm bigger puncher at welter..hmmmmm

Nuff said. Get your "facts" straight.

[Hawkins]

First off, I never distorted any facts. Just stated that he made a viable point. Second I never critically admonished any of Ray's fights so for you to include me in your little diatribe is unwarranted.

If you can't, for a second, see that he has made valid points then so be it.

[wpink1]

After re reading you post again, it is even more 'weak'. Pryor..what did pryor do that as great. He beat an old champion, then beat Arguello when he moved up at the end of his career, and lets not discuss the mysterious bottle he had in the 1st fight, when all of a sudden he came out with all this energy ...hmmm. Name who else Pyror beat!


Sanchez was great by he had a shortened career due to death..Hmmm I guess you simply refuse to give ray the benefit of the doubt due to this retinal issues.

I will ask you this. Who Sanchez, Aguello, Duran, Hearns, hagler...who has beaten better fighters than Ray Leonard. Yes they had longer career, and i guess it frusterates you that Ray benefited from his charisma and opportunities afforded him from winning a gold at the olympics... However he beat great great great fighters 4 top tier hall of famers, not ken buchanons, or the beat mugabi's or fighters who had 9 losses when the faced him. He beat duran who had 1 loss and as 29 years old, he beat a undefeated Benitez 2 time champ stopped him, forced duran to quit, both during their peak years..He stopped Hearns in a great great fight...during both peak years,,he came back from retirment and beat hagler at middleweight after only 1 fight in 5 years...and hagler unbeaten in 10 years....beat a undefeated kalule dropped him when he never touched the canvas....at 154...

Get your facts straight.

[wpink1]

Hawk we debate board to board, if you read I targets the points he made. I just mentioned your name because you agreed with him. His points are one sides and not valid, and you know this. We have debated this time and time again.

As one of the most intelligent debaters i have ever debated with (only we disagee about Duran greatness) I honestly believe that you know more about boxing than almost anyone I have ever debated with...I can not believe you would give credence to the points that he made. They were one sided and not valid if you dig deep into the fights he mentioned.

The only thing he has is the issue about rematches..but it is still onesided as we know what happened in 1982. To say that he choose Journey men instead of rematches, is to ignore that ...wow..get this. between 1979-1981 Ray leonard fought argueably the hardest 2 years ever. Benetix duran Hearns, kalule...then retire and then face hagler ...wow. So he is knocked facing a bonds or finch...Wow...Come on Hawk, You know your stuff dont just agree with some one sided garbage like that.

[wpink1]

One solid point...Ray had a shortened Career. AGreed! How about the quality, the money, the titles, the respect, and people he beat. I think that more than offsets his shortened career.