Your thoughts about: Joe Louis v.s Max Baer 1935 fight

[Willie Pep 229]

A pick em? really Rusty? Lol. Baer is one of my favorite fighters, but there is no way he is ever beating Louis except on a lucky punch... lets employ your distorted logic for s hits and giggles shall we? Braddock beat Baer, so how would he survive Louis? That there is Rusty logic!!!

Baer had weaknesses against anyone who could box well enough to keep him at bay. Watch the Lou Nova fights for an example... Now Nova was no slouch by any means! But he handles Maxi with decent boxing skills and a bit of power.

I think you are being too harsh on Baer; Schmeling certainly could box and it did him no good. --- What about the triangular argument Schmeling-Louis-Baer?

Anyone is beatable it depends on the 'who' is and what style he brings to the fight.

Baer could **** and not all one punch KOs are 'lucky.' We certainly don't say Marciano got lucky against Walcott.

I disagree with both you and Rusty on this one. For Rusty's part, their is a maxim, every great fighter has one last great fight left in him, so watch out.*** Baer should have taken the fight, (and did) it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

For your end, a young Baer, the one climbing to the title might very well have overwhelmed a young Louis (maybe). But still it 's a realistic maybe, IMO not merely a lucky punch fight.

*** My favorite example of that maxim is Brown-Norris I. Simon was so far gone all the experts were saying he shouldn't be allowed to fight anymore (at one point the fight was postponed because Brown had to be hospitalized.) Terry Norris showed him no respect, and oops!

Of course that was Brown's 'one last great fight,' next time out Norris stayed away from him and coasted to a easy, boring UD. (and Brown looked shot)

P.S. [Warning: pointless digression] Ever notice how there always seems to be some guy that is "unbeatable" and then he gets beat, e.g. Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman, Tyson. Everyone of them at one time or another were thought unbeatable, and then got their butts kicked.

I had a doctor once, no kidding, he was wasting my time explaining to me how Mike Tyson could never be KOed because his neck muscles were so strong his head would not snap back allowing a concussion to occur. Again, no kidding, I had to sit there in my jockey shorts listening to this nonsense. After Douglas I actually switched doctors, I didn't want to listen to the guy try to explain himself.

[billeau2]

I think you are being too harsh on Baer; Schmeling certainly could box and it did him no good. --- What about the triangular argument Schmeling-Louis-Baer?

Anyone is beatable it depends on the 'who' is and what style he brings to the fight.

Baer could **** and not all one punch KOs are 'lucky.' We certainly don't say Marciano got lucky against Walcott.

I disagree with both you and Rusty on this one. For Rusty's part, their is a maxim, every great fighter has one last great fight left in him, so watch out.*** Baer should have taken the fight, (and did) it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

For your end, a young Baer, the one climbing to the title might very well have overwhelmed a young Louis (maybe). But still it 's a realistic maybe, IMO not merely a lucky punch fight.

*** My favorite example of that maxim is Brown-Norris I. Simon was so far gone all the experts were saying he shouldn't be allowed to fight anymore (at one point the fight was postponed because Brown had to be hospitalized.) Terry Norris showed him no respect, and oops!

Of course that was Brown's 'one last great fight,' next time out Norris stayed away from him and coasted to a easy, boring UD. (and Brown looked shot)

P.S. [Warning: pointless digression] Ever notice how there always seems to be some guy that is "unbeatable" and then he gets beat, e.g. Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman, Tyson. Everyone of them at one time or another were thought unbeatable, and then got their butts kicked.

I had a doctor once, no kidding, he was wasting my time explaining to me how Mike Tyson could never be KOed because his neck muscles were so strong his head would not snap back allowing a concussion to occur. Again, no kidding, I had to sit there in my jockey shorts listening to this nonsense. After Douglas I actually switched doctors, I didn't want to listen to the guy try to explain himself.

1. Well.... i don't know. Schmelling gave as good as he got for a good part of that fight. I would argue that he gave baer plenty of problems. Baer pulled it out... but not an easy win.

2. Arguing the triangle theory and its merits... maybe another time. It is a flawed theory... it took me years, dragged kicking and screaming, by posters who knew a lot more than I did, to realize that styles do make fights... still hate it lol.

3. Not sure of your issue... im not saying Baer is a one punch Palatka, I am saying he would need a lucky punch to beat Louis. Look... watch the lou nova fights, they are very instructive about max and how he could have problems with a boxer... Louis could punch and could box better Than Nova. Nova took Bauer to the woodshed.

I mean the Nova fights are precedent. Just saying.

4. Now you are arguing for the mere possibility of Bauer prevailing? OK, no problem here with that one. But pep at the end of the day where does the get you on the viability of bauer statistically being able to beat Louis?

Bauer is one of my favorite fighters. I think he had one of the hardest rights ever... and was more talented than a lot of the excellent punchers in the seventies... shavers, lyle, etc. But Louis was a handful. Notice I did not mention louis beating Nova! Lol.

[Rusty Tromboni]

A pick em? really Rusty? Lol. Baer is one of my favorite fighters, but there is no way he is ever beating Louis except on a lucky punch... lets employ your distorted logic for s hits and giggles shall we? Braddock beat Baer, so how would he survive Louis? That there is Rusty logic!!!

Baer had weaknesses against anyone who could box well enough to keep him at bay. Watch the Lou Nova fights for an example... Now Nova was no slouch by any means! But he handles Maxi with decent boxing skills and a bit of power.

So you cite the Braddock and Nova fights hoping to have a meaningful place in this discussion. The former being almost certainly and work, the latter coming at the very close of his career. And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously.

schmelling was undersized, but as troubling as his boxing skill was for Baer, Baer overcame it. Lesser men that Max hurt Louis: his brother, Galento, Braddock, and... CONN! Baer didn't let up when he had an opponent hurt. He was sloppy and took a lot of abuse. If you moved your feet and head, you could dodge most of what he lobbed at you. But Louis would be fighting fire with fire.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I disagree with both you and Rusty on this one. For Rusty's part, their is a maxim, every great fighter has one last great fight left in him, so watch out.*** Baer should have taken the fight, (and did) it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Baer had injured hands. If I tried to put a kid on the mat or field with those injuries I would have been fired as a coach. Professionals have more room in their decision making as they're adults and its their livelihood. But I am not sure Baer got anything more than a cortisone shot, or some sort of opiate balm. I dunno I am not a doctor and I certainly wasn't a doctor in the 30's. But there's no rightful reason a fighter with those injuries should be permitted to fight.

[billeau2]

So you cite the Braddock and Nova fights hoping to have a meaningful place in this discussion. The former being almost certainly and work, the latter coming at the very close of his career. And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously.

schmelling was undersized, but as troubling as his boxing skill was for Baer, Baer overcame it. Lesser men that Max hurt Louis: his brother, Galento, Braddock, and... CONN! Baer didn't let up when he had an opponent hurt. He was sloppy and took a lot of abuse. If you moved your feet and head, you could dodge most of what he lobbed at you. But Louis would be fighting fire with fire.

Yes Louis was often hurt... and he also had his hand raised many times despite... The fact that Louis could be hurt does not mean baer wins... The Nova fights are instructive... Because you are an idiot you simply dismiss anything that does not support your ****** ramblings.

[Willie Pep 229]

Baer had injured hands. If I tried to put a kid on the mat or field with those injuries I would have been fired as a coach. Professionals have more room in their decision making as they're adults and its their livelihood. But I am not sure Baer got anything more than a cortisone shot, or some sort of opiate balm. I dunno I am not a doctor and I certainly wasn't a doctor in the 30's. But there's no rightful reason a fighter with those injuries should be permitted to fight.

I didn't know about the bad hand until just yesterday. Billeau posted a 1964 documentary about Baer and that was the first time I heard about it. An injured hand is a whole other thing than what I was thinking.

Did they have cortisone back then? What I am thinking is, they were giving Kennedy C shots in the mid fifties for his back and by the time he was president they say he was completely depended on it, but the drug was new/unknown and the press didn't understand how to exploit it.

They say overuse can make you psychotic which must have had all kinds of wonderful implications in October of '62. LOL

[Rusty Tromboni]

Yes Louis was often hurt... and he also had his hand raised many times despite... The fact that Louis could be hurt does not mean baer wins... The Nova fights are instructive... Because you are an idiot you simply dismiss anything that does not support your ****** ramblings.

Hurt my men far inferior to Baer. Stopped by Schmeling - whom Baer stopped.

Trying to credit Nova for beating Baer is like crediting Berbick for beating Ali.

It's OK that you're desperate for acceptance, but that's not the way to obtain it.

[QueensburyRules]

I didn't know about the bad hand until just yesterday. Billeau posted a 1964 documentary about Baer and that was the first time I heard about it. An injured hand is a whole other thing than what I was thinking.

Did they have cortisone back then? What I am thinking is, they were giving Kennedy C shots in the mid fifties for his back and by the time he was president they say he was completely depended on it, but the drug was new/unknown and the press didn't understand how to exploit it.

They say overuse can make you psychotic which must have had all kinds of wonderful implications in October of '62. LOL

- -JFK was on a cornucopia of prescribed meds during his reign including sedatives and amphetamines.

The general overuse of penicillin was staggering and still hypochondriacs run to their Doc Feelgood for evermore medicine.

Now our wildlife can't pass a drug test because of contamination.

[billeau2]

Hurt my men far inferior to Baer. Stopped by Schmeling - whom Baer stopped.

Trying to credit Nova for beating Baer is like crediting Berbick for beating Ali.

It's OK that you're desperate for acceptance, but that's not the way to obtain it.

Inferior is a nebulous term at best, unless Baer was Louis' best win... And using the Schmelling fight is "Triangle Theory logic" it assumes that by virtue of a common opponent, that an objective hierarchy of abilities can be established: Yet, the proof this is not true is self evident. And Louis did stop Schmelling BTW.

More likely scenario? Max had a technique and style that flumoxed Louis the first fight. Now, if you actually researched the drek you put out here you would find EXACTLY WHAT Schmelling did, sytlistically to beat Louis. it hardly is relevant to how Schmelling compares to Baer based on a common opponent.

Man... I should not have to tell you this! Seriously...Do you even know what Schmelling did, studied to beat Louis that first fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

Inferior is a nebulous term at best, unless Baer was Louis' best win... And using the Schmelling fight is "Triangle Theory logic" it assumes that by virtue of a common opponent, that an objective hierarchy of abilities can be established: Yet, the proof this is not true is self evident. And Louis did stop Schmelling BTW.

More likely scenario? Max had a technique and style that flumoxed Louis the first fight. Now, if you actually researched the drek you put out here you would find EXACTLY WHAT Schmelling did, sytlistically to beat Louis. it hardly is relevant to how Schmelling compares to Baer based on a common opponent.

Man... I should not have to tell you this! Seriously...Do you even know what Schmelling did, studied to beat Louis that first fight?

I thought Schmeling's "secret weapon" was a straight right hand over a lazy Louis jab? Something Blackburn corrected afterwards. Or at least that's what I always thought the CW was.

I can't remember how Schmeling referenced his tactic before the fight, it wasn't 'secret weapon' (that's my ****** phrase,) but he did announce (somehow) that he had a surprise for Louis, and he did.