If Foreman fought a different against Ali, would he have won?

[Brassangel]

I think that Ali vs. Frazier turns out almost the same as they did no matter when you pit them against each other.

Holmes actually had more differences to Ali than some people think. Ali patiently worked behind the jab and flurried at the end of a round to score and catch a fighter's morale when he was fatigued. Holmes was more opportunistic, almost always leaning his head away from a punch and firing the right hand while his opponent was open. This happened a lot in both Holmes v. Shavers fights.

And yeah, Ali had an amazing chin. Shavers gave a 35 year old, out of shape Ali all he could handle for 15 rounds, and Ali never dropped. Shavers even wobbled Ali a few times, but his recovery rate was stellar, and Ol' Earnie couldn't finish the job. He had a chin, plus a good midsection (at least in the Foreman fight), and an excellent recovery time. He was also good at stalling and confusing his opponents when he was shaken. Difficult man to put away, that's for sure. Still, I think that Frazier came the closest to knocking him out in the 11th round of the FotC. Joe himself said that he couldn't tell if Ali was pretending or not, so he was cautious when moving in. Therefore, he never finished him. Ali could be knocked out, as history has shown that no fighter was invincible, but I don't think that Foreman would have pulled it off on that particular night in 1974.

Now, had there been a rematch, and Ali didn't get himself down to pre-layoff weight again (206, or whatever), that slight loss of speed and stamina from the extra weight might change things a bit.

[butterfly1964]

I think that Ali vs. Frazier turns out almost the same as they did no matter when you pit them against each other.

How is it gonna be the same, when plainly Ali was quite slower than in his prime. His punches lacked the same accuracy, his reflexes dropped slightly, he was more vulnerable to getting into corners, and he just didn't take Frazier seriously.

[Brassangel]

Well, in their post-layoff fights, Ali spent a lot of time punching Frazier in rounds 1 though 4, trying to take his game away early. Despite Joe's great stamina and chin, these punches probably had an effect. In the 1960's, Ali was more likely to be patient and dance around, trying to measure Joe, while attempting flurries before the bell. This would give Joe openings to continuously apply the pressure once he was warmed up, and he wouldn't have suffered near the amount of damage in the early rounds compared to their real first fight. I think Joe is a little fresher, and a little quicker because of this, and Ali doesn't get a lot of cruise time because of Frazier's ability to get right into his chest. Furthermore, Frazier, (like Chuvalo could have), would have smashed Ali's body, taking away some of that fluidity. Even though Ali was slower after the layoff, the difference isn't so much that suddenly Frazier can't lay a glove on him. Seriously, butterfly, Ali is still human, 1960's or not.

Joe Frazier's style and never-stop-bringing-it work ethic make for a good fight against Ali every time. Ali probably wins by UD, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be awesome.

[Heckler]

Speed can be offset with a good jab, Foreman didn't fight his fight, he barely used his jab.

Foremans jab was hard, but it lacked snap and he dropped it after throwing it. He would get stung with counter rights all night ( he did anyway) if he plodded along pushing out that jab. Against against a sharp boxer attempting to push out that relatively cumbersome jab often is going to get you in trouble. Foreman was no boxer-puncher, and any plan of attack that required the stylistic traits of a boxer-puncher eg. Carefully picking shots at a measured pace.. was only going to get him soundly outboxed against those who made George chase. George fought the best fight he could, he cut Ali off, brutalized him to the body, imposed all his physical advantages on Ali.... it wasn't enough... Ali had the correct combination of strengths that enabled him to exploit Georges weaknesses.

[Frazier's 15th round]

Frazier easily beats a dancing Ali of the 60's. He would be in his grill all night. Easy UD.

[butterfly1964]

Frazier easily beats a dancing Ali of the 60's. He would be in his grill all night. Easy UD.

Yeah, even though he almost lost to a slower Ali.

[BKM-]

''Slower'' Ali. Yeah right LOL. people act as if Ali was slow when he fought Frazier, he was extremely fast, and only lost a bit of his former physical attributes. As far as this thing goes, i believe Frazier would beat a Prime Ali, only to lose the other fights. Ali's adapting ability, and the fact that Frazier will have to take a horrific beating to defeat Ali, will mean that Ali would win the trioligy.

[butterfly1964]

''Slower'' Ali. Yeah right LOL. people act as if Ali was slow when he fought Frazier, he was extremely fast, and only lost a bit of his former physical attributes. As far as this thing goes, i believe Frazier would beat a Prime Ali, only to lose the other fights. Ali's adapting ability, and the fact that Frazier will have to take a horrific beating to defeat Ali, will mean that Ali would win the trioligy.

He was slower. First of all, he didn't take Frazier seriously, because he stopped Quarry faster than Frazier did, and he stopped Bonavena and Frazier couldn't. He weighed 213½ for Quarry , and 212 for Bonavena, but he weighed 215 for Frazier and could have been in better shape. (around 210 or so) Second, Bonavena gave Ali a tremendous body beating in a 15 round brawl in Dec. of '70, and he had to fight Frazier in Mar. of '71, giving Ali only three months to heal from that shell-lacking from Oscar. That part of his body wasn't strong enough and when Frazier hit him in the body, he wore down a lot quicker than he would have if he was 100%, making him slower of hand and foot as the fight wore on. If his body was fine, he would have sustained his foot speed for longer periods of time when Frazier body punched him. Third, waiting about six more months and have more than just two tune-up fights would have taken off some more of that ring rust. In 1967, Muhammad Ali peaked in the physical strength department. His punches had more accuracy, and he had the ability to avoid corners better and had better and faster head movement and foot speed than in 1971. He also had a granite chin, but was never tested. His chin didn't get better after the layoff, it was the same. He also had a strong midsection by that time and could take punches to the body, (watch the Chuvalo fight). Frazier would have been facing a different animal had the fight been in 1968 or so, and Ali had been an active champion. I'm confident that with these tools, Muhammad would have pulled out a hard fought, but well-deserved unanimous decision.

Muhammad Ali UD 15.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Frazier easily beats a dancing Ali of the 60's. He would be in his grill all night. Easy UD.

No fight between the two would be "easy", regardless of who the victor would be.

[BKM-]

He was slower. First of all, he didn't take Frazier seriously, because he stopped Quarry faster than Frazier did, and he stopped Bonavena and Frazier couldn't. He weighed 213½ for Quarry , and 212 for Bonavena, but he weighed 215 for Frazier and could have been in better shape. (around 210 or so) Second, Bonavena gave Ali a tremendous body beating in a 15 round brawl in Dec. of '70, and he had to fight Frazier in Mar. of '71, giving Ali only three months to heal from that shell-lacking from Oscar. That part of his body wasn't strong enough and when Frazier hit him in the body, he wore down a lot quicker than he would have if he was 100%, making him slower of hand and foot as the fight wore on. If his body was fine, he would have sustained his foot speed for longer periods of time when Frazier body punched him. Third, waiting about six more months and have more than just two tune-up fights would have taken off some more of that ring rust. In 1967, Muhammad Ali peaked in the physical strength department. His punches had more accuracy, and he had the ability to avoid corners better and had better and faster head movement and foot speed than in 1971. He also had a granite chin, but was never tested. His chin didn't get better after the layoff, it was the same. He also had a strong midsection by that time and could take punches to the body, (watch the Chuvalo fight). Frazier would have been facing a different animal had the fight been in 1968 or so, and Ali had been an active champion. I'm confident that with these tools, Muhammad would have pulled out a hard fought, but well-deserved unanimous decision.

Muhammad Ali UD 15.

The excuses for Ali not taking Frazier seriously should be thrown in the trashcan from now on. How can you honestly say that when watching him pound on Frazier relentlessly for almost half of the fight. He sure as hell took Frazier seriously when he was knocked down in the 15th, the look on his face said it all. You might THINK that fighters don't take a guy seriously, but when the fight is on, and you're holding on for dear life, you're taking it serious.
And He was in great shape, people have to admit this. No man alive could withstand a 15 round bodypunching session from Joe freakin' Frazier! 2 pounds of diffirence isn't enough to convince me.
If Ali still hadn't healed properly from Chuvalo in the Frazier fight, he would have been in the emergency room before round 5. The pain he was in everytime Frazier punched his body, was because of Frazier.
I only don't disagree with how you descriped the diffirences between Ali before and after the lay off, although it wasn't as much as you say.
You make a lot of excuses for Muhammad Ali regarding this fight, and i would take a lot of it as facts, if Ali hadn't fought so great that night. He simply showed up that night, had one of his highest punch stats in a fight and showed incredible endurance that maybe a handfull of fighters could match.

But anyway, this is about Foreman and Ali. The answer is NO, Foreman would never beat him no matter how he fought.