slu

That's the lawsuit that had nothing to do with Haymon right? The investors were suing the fund for investing in PBC but Haymon/PBC weren't being sued, right? No Haymon and PBC weren't named, this was the BobFather and crew trying to get a class action to stop the PBC funding (if we sue there investors there won't be any money disseminated). Gift did a good job writing about this while it was happening and also there was another blog/writer I can't remember who had theories and was following it close. Anyway the rumor mill in boxing was the plaintiff's attorney's (who shopped for plaintiff's btw) was close with the BobFather and were pointed in the direction of Waddell/Haymon under the guise it would cut off funding. So not sure if it did indeed tie Al's hands in negotiating it may have, I would argue NO network was going to negotiate with him before this year anyway because well, why would they? They were getting paid. Now that the payments ended I believe Sept of this year, the window was open. The Lawsuit is a good read though, basically said the Waddell crew did nothing wrong nor did Haymon.

Yep, the initial plan definitely had its flaws that are clear, but that was going to happen as this was the first time something like this had taken place in boxing. Al spent unnecessary money on production and tried to take away the ring walks to make it look more corporate, but this is boxing and it is the opposite of corporate. Did he overpay for a lot of fighters early on? Absolutely, but how else was he going to get them? Hearn was not happy with Haymon when he was doing it, but what has he done since taking over DAZN? Pretty much the same thing and even admitted doing so. If the plan was to turn the model into a UFC infrastructure, then it was never going to happen with the amount of promoters and good fighters elsewhere. Like I mentioned a few weeks ago, when the PBC launched, Haymon had one P4P top 10 fighter in Mayweather who was never going to fight on a PBC card. So you can't become the UFC when the best fighters are elsewhere. But he has built the biggest and deepest stable from any manager/advisor and now some of his core fighters are ready to take the next step. Wilder likely will be a PPV fighter from this day on, Spence after a marquee win or two will become one of the biggest stars in boxing and he has others on the verge of breaking out. I'm sure he would have loved to get FOX AND NBC or FOX AND ABC, but getting FOX+SHO isn't a bad consolation price, especially with the type of budget he has assembled. So no one wants to answer my question of the ROI in my other post? Folks keep alluding to the money "burned" and how investors won't be seeing it any time soon, like that was ever going to happen? The investors knew this was a long-term ploy as did the UFC buyers. Didn't see the ROI question but let's think about this pretty rationally. The UFC publishes their numbers as does the WWE. If we are ballpark right and the two deals are $100 mln in TV, likely some sponsorship and venue so let's say they are doing $110mln of revenue. Fighters are going to take 60% (aggressive vs. other sports but it's Al so let's lean that way) so let's say $44 of net revenue to the business and his corporate expense can't be much but let's say it's $15 mln that leaves you about $30mln in bottom line (some slippage but not a lot with paying promoters, etc) but at $30 mln in profit these business trade for 12-15X cash flow (looking at WWE, UFC, New York Knicks through MSG) then the business today is worth $350 to $450 mln today post signing these deals. So ROI is still negative on the $550 but catching up quickly. If they can grow this TV deal into $150-$200 in four years then boom ROI's start to explode.

Settled in April eh? Not sure how I missed that. Well, that's good to hear. Probably allowed him to start negotiating the network deals after that was taken care of. Exactly what happened, allowed him to negotiate.

Yep. Depending on how successful this series with FOX is and the type of investment they get the next time around, everything could flip. It already has started to do so. If Haymon was just relegated to SHO with a $50 million investment, then obviously that would have been a big failure. But FOX like ESPN needs a lot of sports content right now so it is great timing for Al and the PBC. If we get SHO level fights on FOX, then the ratings will take care of itself and the quality will match what FOX is looking for. Also, how much money do you think Haymon made off the McGregor/Pacquiao fights? And what do you think he did with that money? Totally agree. On Mayweather, I read some place that he and Al actually have no contract and never have. I believe Al takes 10% off the top or traditional music manager fee off of floyd (I'll see if I can find that article). So the Mayweather Showtime deal I'm going to guess he made in the 50's for the 6 fights including Pacquio and my guess is 25ish for McGregor. What he did with the money? Looks like he invested wisely. I know he sold Bounce for a huge number to Sinclair. He also sold his music business a long time ago to what is now live nation.

I think it is a fair guess to think he made 50-60 million off those two fights. And I bet he didn't just pocket that money, but put some down on the investment. What is the latest on the lawsuit? Wasn't there supposed to be some important date coming up in July? Paul Gift wrote that the lawsuit (I'm assuming we are talking the investor lawsuit) was settled. Looks like they paid attorney fees and nothing else. Good for the attorney's who brought the case. Here is a link on their website: https://www.zamansky.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Amended-Notice.pdf

Of course they know the number of cards. They sign a deal saying X number of shows per year. They also start to fill out the programming calendar for network television in Oct-Dec time frame for the following year. That's how network TV works.

Btw, good call on the 10 FOX primetime cards. Thought it would be closer to the six range not 10. Advertising buyers were screaming about the 10. Will be interesting what months they take off. I'd guess around NFL/College Football

The deal is for four years with an annual budget of $60 million. Once you figure in the Showtime deal (which is probably in the $60 million range), it's safe to assume Haymon/PBC is working with about $120 million annually over the next 4 years (With a total of 24 Saturday primetime cards annually.), and content deals worth over $500 million over the next 4 years. It amazes me how people doubted a man who's already sold several $50 - $100 million dollar properties and has created multiple syndicated TV shows. Not to mention his work that led to Floyd becoming the first and it billion $ boxer. I don't like to pull the race card, but that was the only logical explanation here. The guys is a successful businessman by any objective measure. Super interesting deal. So 22 shows? I was way off but at least close on the big fox channel at 10. Agree here, Al is not a dumb guy and I'd agree looks like he's in the neighborhood of $100mln ish per year. For the haters, the UFC's first deal with Fox started at $109 mln per year and exited at $150 per year. Then obviously they just had a massive jump. Al is on the way. Now will be ratings and ad loadings which will determine the rest. Your right, Al has been in TV for decades. I read an article that he was one of the co-founders of Bounce TV which just sold to Sinclair. He's crushed it. He has put PBC is a great position now, question is can you drive real ratings and build these guys. Time will tell.

Here goes the haters talking crap on Bud Crawford. I don't see why hate on the man?? He's a great fighter, he has an exciting style, and he always comes to fight. The only reason I can see they hate on him is cause he fights for Top Rank and not Al Haymon.... At the end who gives a fucc?? People are quick to blame Bob Arum for some of the best fights not being made but Bob has shown he's willing to work with any promoter to make the best fights. Maybe All the fighters under PBC should leave Al Haymon and go fight under Top Rank ??? NOW I'M GONNA HEAR SOME CRAP FOR SAYING THAT.. 🤣 But on the real, IDK why some people even care who a fighter fights for..... ? They aren't getting any money for a fighter being under PBC. And I don't even like that old punk motherfuccer Bob Arum! 1. Bob chronically rips off fighters (see above) 2. Bud signing this means unless the top welterweights all sign with the bobfather than we aren't going to see Bud in a fight anyone cares about hence his earnings power will suck. At least Bradley had manny 8 times and Marquez. Who does Bud have??? NO ONE. So I don't think anyone really cares who fights for who but BUD made dumb decision. I mean Danny Jacobs knew outside of the Jermal, no one to fight on PBC's roster so he went to HBO to chase GGG and Canelo. Haymon didn't fight him on that. Bobfather ain't letting Bud fight outside the umbrella.

Al was also one of the biggest concert promoters if the 1980s. Absolutely. I think he has something like 1000 hours of TV producer credits too.

When your high school buddy that used to set up chairs in the venue runs the company, unfortunately not much of a future for the company. Lmao..... great post. Oscar has a huge problem, we know Golden Boy makes effectively no money ex Canelo and the lawsuit proved the only money they made before that was off Floyd PPV. Future?? He better pray to god Canelo boxes until he's 45 and never loses.

Idk about that. I think if he talked it'd be highly interesting & insightful + be good PR for his product, PBC. The fact he's an international man of mystery isn't a plus at all...well outside of for him cuz him preferring to take that approach with his public persona seems like a calculated move cuz cats just trying to live life don't avoid the public like he does with these back room sightings that seem Bigfoot-ish. I think it's a huge plus. Look like a promoter clown where you are out in front of your fighters all the time ranting and raving or shut up and make them rich. Floyd vs. Manny here. Al is masterful at this. These other promoters act like if it werent for them the sport would be dead, why do I have to watch the bobfather or eddie or Oscar or Schaefer? No one cares about these dudes at all. The Fertitas were the same way, let Dana run around and shoot his mouth off while they built the business.

Fox is not paying more than Showtime. Fox paying much less than Showtime. If Fox was paying more, they would be announcing their deal first. But Fox has to wait until next week, and their deal will be announced during a showtime fight week lol We will see when Fox announces, there are ad buying reasons (which showtime doesn't have) for Fox to wait. I'd argue Showtime had to release first so it didn't look like they were "getting out of boxing" when Fox announces. Espinoza cares more about optics and didn't want to seem like he got cut out. More important than showtime fight week is NFL first week and Fox now has Thursday night football. That's my guess.

Any source for that $30m figure for Top Rank on ESPN/ESPN+? There was another poster on this site who was trying to argue that Top Rank was sitting on a fortune from ESPN, yet couldn't produce even a guess at a source. Any info would be much appreciated. This is correct only the first two years are guaranteed. The ESPN figure I believe came from a Disney investor presentation on their rights fees by sports and total spend on ESPN+

BTW I agree with WBA WBC IBF... he nailed it. PBC never needed every network. They needed 1 major network and one cable outlet. They have a major now and two cable nets. Haymon wins. Bob is relegated to streaming ESPN+ and Eddie on DAZN. Nice platforms but really limited viewership for now. Al has a real budget to spend on fighters and very little overhead (ex whatever he has to pay his investors over time). But you can't argue real value isn't created here now. Fighters have big exposure, multiple dates and for them $$$$$. Eddie can't sign anyone because uncle Al told them to be patient and he generally doesn't screw his guys. Now he has a war chest equal to Eddie (I'd guess) with a much bigger platform.

yes Fox network (main channel) will get priority of fights, that's the scuttle. Hence paying more. My guess is FS1 and Showtime will get similar level fights.

when I say scared, I mean given ALL of these guys have huge flaws they want to hold on to belts as long as possible and Wilder with knock out power is unpredictable because of the right hand. Of course your right, Wilder will lose to someone for sure, they all will I'd guess. The trainer I spoke with who's heavyweight fought AJ, basically said look, AJ doesn't scare us, Wilder's skill's don't scare us at all, but he can clunk you out of nowhere with that right and that's it. So your right, if you had a truly well rounded heavyweight you wouldn't be scared at all, but I guess there really aren't any well rounded Heavyweights so power is a problem these guys can't really solve for. Good points btw....

I mean to say leaking like crazy around Fox, not PBC (it's uncle al after all). Fox has already cleared network time for 2019 and all the Ad buyers have been alerted they are doing a rights deal. Going to have Big Fox and FS1. It is believed Fox gets priority on fights.

Few things. Your right could be in the neighborhood of 6-8, I'm hearing 8-10 based on add buys but your right could be 6. Difference with UFC is Al does WAY less PPV. Dana is running a PPV a month and that sucked the life out of the network shows. Al will do some PPV, he will have to but not one a month. FS1 cards I'd guess will improve vs what they were doing when PBC was buying airtime (I would make them if I was Fox and I'm paying a rights fee). So your right, Showtime and FS1 will have fights that are similar to what we have seen on Showtime but with more dates, probably some lessor fights on FS1 but overall better than what's been on there. Lastly, I would SERIOUSLY doubt showtime is paying more. I'd guess it's same (basically there boxing budget went to Al anyway). No way CBS is shelling out more money now with Viacom problems. But still a huge win for Al because he formalizes it vs. a handshake so his investors have to be happy because it creates real value and certainty of revenue (for the fighters too). I hear Fox is paying a real rights deal (my guess is your 45-50 number is close enough) AND Fox covers all the expenses and shoulder programming. That's a huge win for PBC (and Fox for that matter, I mean let's say they are paying $50, that's signifcantly less than UFC and the numbers are comparable to better depending on fight quality).

You think they're gonna give throw away cards to Fox? The deal calls for Fox to do PBC PPVs and hold prelims shows on FS1 and FS2. Big fights will be on FOX and SHO. Big fights will be on SHO (at least 12) and FOX (10) and lower level will be on FS1 (12) and BounceTV(4.) Agreed Fox wouldn't pay them for what they were putting on fox under the time buy deal. Fox will get good fights on the 10 shows on the network and so will showtime. The PPV's obviously have to be big fights. I'm sure Fox has threshold numbers in the PPV agreement. This is a much better deal than anticipated, its 22 shows and cross promotion and shoulder programming. Good for the fighters for sure. We will see Deontay on the WWE now? Can't wait.

Showtime has Viacom problems? How so? They are completely separate companies. Fox is paying $20M. SHowtime 2-3 times that much. 20 fights per year on FS1 costs nothing. Fox pays peanuts for FS1. It's filler. There paying more than 20 million. That's too low if all you know is they are doing somewhere between the rumored 6-12 prime time shows. Yes Showtime has a Viacom problem. Showtime is owned by CBS, CBS is in a nasty fight with Viacom and it's keeping budgets in check across all their properties. CBS and Viacom are both controlled by the Redstone family and they want to put the two back together. No way Espinoza has some massive budget (guess is 40-50 tops) to buy content. So like I said in another post, just formalizing what he was already doing with PBC is a win for PBC. You don't need a big price swing. For Fox, they were getting paid AND PBC had to pay for everything. Fox will be paying and paying for event costs. No way that can happen at 20mln with the big channel in the mix. No way.

Must drive these attention whore promoters nuts. Boxing and MMA are the only sports where the promoters try to be the star. Bad model and its dying in front of there eyes. Must really piss the Bob father off that Haymon cares not about the attention only the money for him and his guys. Of course he's throwing shade, his fighter is on the outside looking in and at welter he's got no one. Bud crying about Spence but Spence now has Porter, Thurman, Pac and Mikey he can fight. Bud......needs a PPV with a Haymon guy to make real $$$.

First off Al isn't a promoter so he shouldn't be all out in front of cameras like that anyway. But the thing is he's a notable manager & notable managers historically haven't been so deep undercover like Haymon is. That Cameron Dunkin TR boxer manager guy did interviews when he was hot. Its kinda f#cking weird at this point a guy everyone is talking about talks to no one else. I mean Haymon talking anytime in the last decade would be more likely to be a 60 Minutes episode than a random podcast interview. Thats how big he is despite not being a "clown" as you say. True but I think about it this way, in most sports the athlete's are front and center most of the time (sans Jerry Jones?). In boxing the promoter (and your right Al isn't a promoter) wants to be the most important guy in the room. From what I've read (again don't know) Al was really out in front of his music business back in the 80's and 90's. You can find interviews he used to do back then, pics, etc. He totally changed his MO when he teamed up with Floyd. I'm sure part of that was Floyd had the ability to promote himself but I also would guess that the traditional promoter role had no attraction for him and then it becomes almost mystique to be the man behind the curtain. He has let others be out in front like the Watsons and some of his PBC guys. I just appreciate the style, lethal and quiet.

The first Fox show of the deal takes place in Dec. A NY Times article states Spence is fighting in December. Could be. Also Fox will distribute PPVs as well as SHO. PPV thing is super interesting. FOX getting into PPV business means they negotiated hard to keep it all in "their" tent unlike the UFC deal. Love to know what the PPV hurdles are because that would give you insight into the matchups PBC has to produce.

SHO runs about 15 shows a year. I think they are going to do around three more shows next year with their increased budget. And Espinoza wants to put something on every month with no lulls like right now. So you are actually talking about 28-30 high budget cards, plus 12 other FS1 cards. Basically, Al has doubled the dates for his top fighters. Extremely hard to stay active when SHO is only running 15 shows a year. That's the biggest plus in this new deal. absolutely correct. Bang on.

So kind of like Canelo when he isn't fighting GGG?

The fact that Eddie makes me long for the old man says everything I need to know. No one is criticizing Wilder because he was clearly willing to take the fight at a reduced rate. None of these guys are worth a damn heavyweights but its what we got. Of these not worth a damn heavyweights, Wilder is the only one with stupid knockout power. Terrible skills, I mean terrible but he has a live right hand. If you don't think that scares these trainers (one of whom I've talked to who had a belt holder up until recently) basically said look, all these guys have incredible flaws and they are average skill guys but Wilder has true power and that is scary. Time will tell if AJ/Wilder ever comes to fruition but Eddie honestly needs to shut up about it. He's got povetkin which won't be easy and wilder has fury. Why would wilder's team want to negotiate an April date before we know the outcome of that fight? Makes no negotiating sense.

Good points... Okay, so lets say SHO puts one 18 cards next year, they will do so with ~50 million in rights fees. That's on average around 2.7 million per card. If FOX gets a similar budget and puts on say 8-10 like you are predicting, plus 15 FS1 cards. I have no idea how many FS1 cards take place now but lets say it is around that mark from 2019 on. If FOX wants bigger fights and will want to pay good rights fees for them, then we can assume about 3.5-5 million for those FOX cards. That already puts you around 30-35 million. So for the 15 or so FS1 cards, you have left around 10-15 million. No way can you put the type of quality SHO puts on with that type of budget. If FS1 is to put on SHO level cards, then FOX better be paying around 75-80 million per year, and not 45-50 million per year. Your right, probably pretty good math and so FS1 is likely to be a below level Showtime production. I'm super interested in the mix of prime time shows vs. FS1 vs. number of showtime shows. Your right if Showtime does between 12 and 18 and Fox Big Channel does 8-10 and somewhere between 12-15 shows on FS1 on the low side he's got to budget for 32 events on the low side and 43 on the high side then your right you probably got be in the 90-100 mln range in total fees to make the whole thing go and FS1 is likely to see a different level of fights. Thanks for the insight.

I hate to praise myself here but this deal wasn't that unexpected lol when I created my profile here, I did it with the purpose of breaking down the T.V. numbers for PBC. I told posters here that he'd get a deal in the $100 million/year range. I was told I was crazy. That was a few years ago. The numbers told the story the whole time, but for some reason boxing fans are generally opposed to critical thinking lol People just needed to be patient. Nothing was going to happen until the UFC property found it's home. Your right did notice you've been discussing for a while. Your right the $$$ isn't a shocker the way it ended up was interesting.

MR USA is dead in the water. Why would any fighter sign on a platform no one has ever heard of when they can be on Showtime/Fox or ESPN? Said the same thing last week. Why for the same money would you go to a platform that is much smaller (DAZN and ESPN+). At some point streaming will grow but the audience reach on Fox is so much larger and they will promote using other shows/assets. DAZN can't do that. Eddie has a huge problem and if your a fighter you want the network money or russian money? The networks don't send guys to your house.