I doubt Usyk would be 2 division champion in any other era

"You said the champions have gotten bigger and I showed you otherwise" No you haven't. You mentioned a few smaller/lighter champions, that doesn't negate an established general trend (Louis-Liston-Ali-Holmes-Bowe-Lewis-K2-Fury). Especially as the smaller champs generally lost to the best big men they fought. All of these fighters were bigger than average in their day among the best, if not the very biggest. Heavyweights have got bigger, more athletic, more skilled and more stylistically diverse but less black/American. Which is the problem for many. As well as the fact that people generally have nostalgia for their younger days, when they were more vigorous. You made no argument about southpaws, you merely asserted than ye old timey HW's like Joe Louis or Ali or whoever could beat elite modern southpaws with their super skills, when there is much evidence against that claim and little to no for. Tell me which facts are wrong in this piece and explain why: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/boxing-forums/non-stop-boxing/32035339-southpaws-are-hugely-overrepresented-as-victors-against-top-heavyweights Lol, do you know what a trend is? Those smaller lighter champs are the average, they are the trend...

You said the champions have gotten bigger and I showed you otherwise... Lying? Lol ok. YES fighters have gotten bigger, slower, less trained... Fighters decide to come in too heavy and have amatuer level skills on average compared to other epoches in the division. Just watch tape it is obvious. Look, the argument I gave you for southpaws has to be responded to... I don't even think you understand it. But until you respond to it we are talking in circles... and don't call me a liar when you misunderstand a point YOU raised and I responded, specifically to. "You said the champions have gotten bigger and I showed you otherwise" No you haven't. You mentioned a few smaller/lighter champions, that doesn't negate an established general trend (Louis-Liston-Ali-Holmes-Bowe-Lewis-K2-Fury). Especially as the smaller champs generally lost to the best big men they fought. All of these fighters were bigger than average in their day among the best, if not the very biggest. Heavyweights have got bigger, more athletic, more skilled and more stylistically diverse but less black/American. Which is the problem for many. As well as the fact that people generally have nostalgia for their younger days, when they were more vigorous. You made no argument about southpaws, you merely asserted than ye old timey HW's like Joe Louis or Ali or whoever could beat elite modern southpaws with their super skills, when there is much evidence against that claim and little to no for. Tell me which facts are wrong in this piece and explain why: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/boxing-forums/non-stop-boxing/32035339-southpaws-are-hugely-overrepresented-as-victors-against-top-heavyweights

"the heavyweight division HAS NOT been dominated by bigger fighters" Stop lying. The top fighter in the division has almost always been big compared to the division's average, especially since the 60's and there's been a consistent increase in terms of size. Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Lewis, K2, Fury. The most conspicuous exception was Tyson but that was a long time ago back in the 80's when heavyweights generally were much smaller and he struggled in the 90's. Frazier went 1-4 with Ali and Foreman, Holyfield went 1-3-1 with Bowe and Lewis, Byrd went 1-2 with Vitali and Wlad, Povetkin went 0-1 with Wlad, Haye went 0-1 with Wlad and ducked Fury and GOAT southpaw heavyweight Usyk hasn't fought Fury yet. For the last 30 years the division has been dominated by super-heavyweights, to the point that Usyk is considered a small heavy/blown-up cruiser but has the same dimensions as Ali (who was very big for his time in terms of height, reach and natural weight). "Old time fighters had technical abilities..." Heavies from 50-80 years ago were technically crude in my opinion but what isn't just an opinion is that southpaws were usually converted to orthodox in American gyms, such was the attitude of these ignorant old time trainers. But ducking of southpaws was endemic; even Joe Louis, who you probably think was a great technician, said he'd never fight one after getting schooled in the gym by a LHW southpaw. 1994 Moorer was the first southpaw HW titlist and he was a blown-up LHW, past heavies had no pro experience in this regard and without experience you are going to struggle more, the same goes for trainers who almost never experienced taking them on. Holyfield was a better all round technician than previous heavies imo but he admitted that he struggled with southpaws, going 1-3 against them. Holmes was a good technician but was clueless against southpaws, hence he got waxed twice by a journeyman lefty as an amateur. Ali also admitted that he struggled with them. It is what it is. In the future there will be more styles/body types that had never existed previously which no one prior to them could prepare for, that's how the sport has always worked.​ You said the champions have gotten bigger and I showed you otherwise... Lying? Lol ok. YES fighters have gotten bigger, slower, less trained... Fighters decide to come in too heavy and have amatuer level skills on average compared to other epoches in the division. Just watch tape it is obvious. Look, the argument I gave you for southpaws has to be responded to... I don't even think you understand it. But until you respond to it we are talking in circles... and don't call me a liar when you misunderstand a point YOU raised and I responded, specifically to.

Obvious is not always the last word... Size is such that it makes sense to organize according to weight. But there are levels to the game! When boxing started out, fighters main concern was not breaking a hand. You hand to punch hard, but accuracy was equally important. With bare knuckle and up to when gloves became a certain size, one could make a direct connection, hit to targets, hence the emphasis on accuracy. As gloves got bigger, and fighters lost that direct link from the kinetic chain, the dynamics of punching changed. Instead of accuracy, accuracy was tempered with the need to swing the arm hard enough so impact did the work... and not a direct hit to a vital area, This change did make weight more important. the heavyweight division HAS NOT been dominated by bigger fighters... Most fighters, including champs like Holyfield, Tyson, Usyk. Wilder all fall in the average weight for a heavyweight, give or take... Some big fighters have also been succesful, where as in the past, after Jeffries, no guys considered really big were able to become champions. Fighting a Southpaw is a process of creating the right angles, knowing where to step, etc. Old time fighters had technical abilities that make this process not complicated. There is also the fact that statistically there will only be a certain amount of Southpaws, especially considering the heavyweight division. Less big guys = less of all fighters, including South Paws. "the heavyweight division HAS NOT been dominated by bigger fighters" Stop lying. The top fighter in the division has almost always been big compared to the division's average, especially since the 60's and there's been a consistent increase in terms of size. Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Lewis, K2, Fury. The most conspicuous exception was Tyson but that was a long time ago back in the 80's when heavyweights generally were much smaller and he struggled in the 90's. Frazier went 1-4 with Ali and Foreman, Holyfield went 1-3-1 with Bowe and Lewis, Byrd went 1-2 with Vitali and Wlad, Povetkin went 0-1 with Wlad, Haye went 0-1 with Wlad and ducked Fury and GOAT southpaw heavyweight Usyk hasn't fought Fury yet. For the last 30 years the division has been dominated by super-heavyweights, to the point that Usyk is considered a small heavy/blown-up cruiser but has the same dimensions as Ali (who was very big for his time in terms of height, reach and natural weight). "Old time fighters had technical abilities..." Heavies from 50-80 years ago were technically crude in my opinion but what isn't just an opinion is that southpaws were usually converted to orthodox in American gyms, such was the attitude of these ignorant old time trainers. But ducking of southpaws was endemic; even Joe Louis, who you probably think was a great technician, said he'd never fight one after getting schooled in the gym by a LHW southpaw. 1994 Moorer was the first southpaw HW titlist and he was a blown-up LHW, past heavies had no pro experience in this regard and without experience you are going to struggle more, the same goes for trainers who almost never experienced taking them on. Holyfield was a better all round technician than previous heavies imo but he admitted that he struggled with southpaws, going 1-3 against them. Holmes was a good technician but was clueless against southpaws, hence he got waxed twice by a journeyman lefty as an amateur. Ali also admitted that he struggled with them. It is what it is. In the future there will be more styles/body types that had never existed previously which no one prior to them could prepare for, that's how the sport has always worked.​

"Actually there are many reasons for weight catagories" The obvious one being that bigger men have a huge advantage in a fight over smaller men. It's also more dangerous for smaller men to take such big hits. "the heavyweight division is an open division technically" Dominated for the last 30 years by men who are billed as being 6'5+, 240+ lbs, if not bigger. "saying they could not deal with soutpaws makes no sense" They barely fought any southpaws due to American trainers converting them to orthodox + ducking. Without experience against southpaws you won't be good against them, even with a lot of experience you are still likely to struggle as modern heavies can attest. And when these old fighters did fight southpaws, usually in the amateurs, they lost to them at much higher rates. At least two of Ali's 8 amateur losses were to southpaws, one of them KO'd him. A journeyman southpaw was responsible for both of Holmes' KO defeats in the amateurs. 1966 Ali had a very tough fight with a very small, basic southpaw in Mildenberger and Holmes never fought one in 75 pro fights. Joe Louis admitted to ducking them. Holyfield was very skilled but he had huge trouble with southpaws by his own admission and was 1-3 against them. Bowe, Tyson and Lewis never fought any. So given these facts of course they couldn't deal with them well. I don't blame old heavies for not fighting good southpaws/any southpaws but it will always be a gaping hole in their records relative to modern fighters if these comparisons are made: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/boxing-forums/non-stop-boxing/32035339-southpaws-are-hugely-overrepresented-as-victors-against-top-heavyweights Obvious is not always the last word... Size is such that it makes sense to organize according to weight. But there are levels to the game! When boxing started out, fighters main concern was not breaking a hand. You hand to punch hard, but accuracy was equally important. With bare knuckle and up to when gloves became a certain size, one could make a direct connection, hit to targets, hence the emphasis on accuracy. As gloves got bigger, and fighters lost that direct link from the kinetic chain, the dynamics of punching changed. Instead of accuracy, accuracy was tempered with the need to swing the arm hard enough so impact did the work... and not a direct hit to a vital area, This change did make weight more important. the heavyweight division HAS NOT been dominated by bigger fighters... Most fighters, including champs like Holyfield, Tyson, Usyk. Wilder all fall in the average weight for a heavyweight, give or take... Some big fighters have also been succesful, where as in the past, after Jeffries, no guys considered really big were able to become champions. Fighting a Southpaw is a process of creating the right angles, knowing where to step, etc. Old time fighters had technical abilities that make this process not complicated. There is also the fact that statistically there will only be a certain amount of Southpaws, especially considering the heavyweight division. Less big guys = less of all fighters, including South Paws.

As a general rule however it does not hold true that a 300 pound man punches harder than a 250 pound man. and no... the differnce between 220 and 250 is negligable. "As a general rule however it does not hold true that a 300 pound man punches harder than a 250 pound man" It does if they are athletic but heavyweight boxing has not progressed to that stage yet. Sooner or later it will. I'm sure that if the Chinese genetically modified 7', 320 lbs southpaw heavyweight champions we'd still have a few goobers on boxing forums claiming that Shavers punched harder and that Joe Louis would beat them. "the differnce between 220 and 250 is negligable" Nice assertion. If we were to identify biggest punchers at heavyweight, how many of them do you think would be in the 6'2-6'3, 210-220 lbs range or smaller, like the 70's/80's heavies were? The only heavies that small are blown-up cruisers like Usyk and Hunter, who are among the lightest punchers in the division (Gassiev being the exception but he couldn't put a dent in the much bigger Wallin). Then you have short but fat/obese heavies like Franklin and Ruiz, who are also relatively light punchers. It's the heavies with big frames, a lot of muscle, generally 6'4-6'7 and in the 240-280 lbs range that usually pack the biggest punch. The same was true in the previous two eras, where Wlad and Lewis were the biggest punchers.

Actually there are many reasons for weight catagories, and the heavyweight division is an open division technically, did you know that? Old fighters were very technically savy, saying they could not deal with soutpaws makes no sense. "Actually there are many reasons for weight catagories" The obvious one being that bigger men have a huge advantage in a fight over smaller men. It's also more dangerous for smaller men to take such big hits. "the heavyweight division is an open division technically" Dominated for the last 30 years by men who are billed as being 6'5+, 240+ lbs, if not bigger. "saying they could not deal with soutpaws makes no sense" They barely fought any southpaws due to American trainers converting them to orthodox + ducking. Without experience against southpaws you won't be good against them, even with a lot of experience you are still likely to struggle as modern heavies can attest. And when these old fighters did fight southpaws, usually in the amateurs, they lost to them at much higher rates. At least two of Ali's 8 amateur losses were to southpaws, one of them KO'd him. A journeyman southpaw was responsible for both of Holmes' KO defeats in the amateurs. 1966 Ali had a very tough fight with a very small, basic southpaw in Mildenberger and Holmes never fought one in 75 pro fights. Joe Louis admitted to ducking them. Holyfield was very skilled but he had huge trouble with southpaws by his own admission and was 1-3 against them. Bowe, Tyson and Lewis never fought any. So given these facts of course they couldn't deal with them well. I don't blame old heavies for not fighting good southpaws/any southpaws but it will always be a gaping hole in their records relative to modern fighters if these comparisons are made: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/boxing-forums/non-stop-boxing/32035339-southpaws-are-hugely-overrepresented-as-victors-against-top-heavyweights

I make a reasoned argument and you bring *****es into it. Of course. There are weight categories for a reason and there's no rational reason why 200 lbs is where it ceases to be an advantage, just as there was no reason why 175 lbs was optimal prior to the creation of cruiserweight. Another key difference is the southpaw stance. Holyfield was the only heavyweight prior to the Klitschkos who fought a few good ones and he went 1-3 against them. The old heavies didn't really fight any southpaws or any at all above Euro level, were clueless against them and thus couldn't be expected to beat good modern southpaws. Actually there are many reasons for weight catagories, and the heavyweight division is an open division technically, did you know that? Old fighters were very technically savy, saying they could not deal with soutpaws makes no sense.

"it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder" As a general rule it holds true though. A 6'6, 250 lbs man hits considerably harder on average than a 6'2, 220 lbs man. Shavers for instance was generally stopping cruiser sized men and he had a lot of trouble stopping bigger heavies. "As weight goes up the advantages of size go down" True to an extent but look at the dominant heavies of the last 30 years: Bowe and Lewis won their series' with Holyfield, K2 dominated, then the three headed monster of Fury, Wilder and Joshua. The lone exception has been Usyk, who is the best southpaw heavyweight of all time and not a blown-up LHW like Moorer and Byrd or a former 190 pounder like Holyfield. As a general rule however it does not hold true that a 300 pound man punches harder than a 250 pound man. and no... the differnce between 220 and 250 is negligable.

Holyfield on a fight with Usyk …. “It would have difficult “ When each individual fights their fight, they probably could win. What comes with the little guy – quick hands, good movement. What comes with the big guy – strong and big punches. So, it’s whoever fights their fight.” If you don’t land no big shots, then the little guy is going to outpoint you – and plus, he’s got power.” I remember seeing him say he’d favor Usyk because movers caused him more difficulty . ​ Indeed. Holyfield said about Usyk: "Usyk would have probably beat me in his era" From such an egotistical fighter this is a huge admission. Holyfield said he would have "tore up Joe Louis, because fighters get better over time". Holyfield had problems with southpaws and movers but that's not unusual at all. What's unusual is Holyfield fought guys who had stylistic advantages over him, even when he was in his 40's.

it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder... As weight goes up the advantages of size go down... Plus there are many other measures to consider "it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder" As a general rule it holds true though. A 6'6, 250 lbs man hits considerably harder on average than a 6'2, 220 lbs man. Shavers for instance was generally stopping cruiser sized men and he had a lot of trouble stopping bigger heavies. "As weight goes up the advantages of size go down" True to an extent but look at the dominant heavies of the last 30 years: Bowe and Lewis won their series' with Holyfield, K2 dominated, then the three headed monster of Fury, Wilder and Joshua. The lone exception has been Usyk, who is the best southpaw heavyweight of all time and not a blown-up LHW like Moorer and Byrd or a former 190 pounder like Holyfield.

I am not going to go round the mulberry bush to deal with another size queen sorry... I make a reasoned argument and you bring penises into it. Of course. There are weight categories for a reason and there's no rational reason why 200 lbs is where it ceases to be an advantage, just as there was no reason why 175 lbs was optimal prior to the creation of cruiserweight. Another key difference is the southpaw stance. Holyfield was the only heavyweight prior to the Klitschkos who fought a few good ones and he went 1-3 against them. The old heavies didn't really fight any southpaws or any at all above Euro level, were clueless against them and thus couldn't be expected to beat good modern southpaws.

"NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds" All you have to do is look at the size of modern heavyweights to realise there has been a huge jump. Ali was massive in the 60's at 6'2.5, 210 lbs but today he'd be smaller than Usyk, who isn't even a career heavyweight. And the biggest elite athlete in boxing history Tyson Fury at 6'7.5, 256-273 lbs would make Ali look like a midget. Modern boxers throw more punches despite being much bigger. Compare the Compubox stats from Ali-Mildenberger to Usyk-Hunter for instance. All of the heavyweight punch stat records are modern. Ali was extremely crude and primitive technically compared to Usyk, Fury etc. He was a big athletic guy in the 60's who depended on his size and speed advantages. But offensively he was very limited (jab and right hand merchant, no body shots, limited front foot game) and defensively he was very easy to tag considering his physical advantages. Ali fought far less rounds than guys like Sullivan and Johnson, who fought with no round limit. It's meaningless. "Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights?" Only if they put on a lot of fat plus PED bulk. Foreman was 228 even as a mature man against Young in the 70's. It has nothing to do with "the output of the opponent" as Foreman for instance knew that many fights weren't going long, so there was an advantage in being heavier (better able to take shots, push the opponent back and do more damage to take the opponent out faster). Hence he was 224 lbs in the Frazier rematch. "Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens." Fury and Ali are both good examples of chins improving in their 30's relative to their 20's. Foreman was the same, probably Wlad too. Physical maturity, extra weight and greater composure can improve your ability to take a shot. People take the older Ali and assume that the younger Ali was better in every respect but this is false, just as the older Fury and Foreman were better in some/many respects than their younger versions. I am not going to go round the mulberry bush to deal with another size queen sorry...

I have no direct proof that Inoue doesn't hit harder than Wlad Klitschko either. But I know that bigger men punch harder than smaller men (a major reason why there are weight categories) and I know that modern PED-enhanced athletes punch harder than athletes from 50-60 years ago who lack those advantages. A big punching 6'1, 200 lbs heavyweight from 1940 won't punch as hard as a big punching 6'6, 280 lbs heavyweight from 2020. it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder... As weight goes up the advantages of size go down... Plus there are many other measures to consider

Boxrec and Eyeonthering consensus is that Byrd won 3 rounds so you're wrong again. Byrd slipped many of Vitali's relatively slow and sloppy punches, which caused Vitali to injure himself. Vitali couldn't hurt the blown-up light heavyweight southpaw at any point over 9 full rounds, then he quit. And Vitali never pursued a rematch, getting the more athletic, offensively skilled and less injury prone Wlad to take care of it instead. That's all there is to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CKRDEKnN80 Slippin and a movin...too busy to actually try and win

Boxrec and Eyeonthering consensus is that Byrd won 3 rounds so you're wrong again. Byrd slipped many of Vitali's relatively slow and sloppy punches, which caused Vitali to injure himself. Vitali couldn't hurt the blown-up light heavyweight southpaw at any point over 9 full rounds, then he quit. And Vitali never pursued a rematch, getting the more athletic, offensively skilled and less injury prone Wlad to take care of it instead. That's all there is to it. https://www.buildinglink.com/V2/mgmt/default.aspx?PagePath=%2Fv2%2Fmgmt%2Fdashboard%2Fd ashboard.aspx%3F Slippin and a movin...too busy to actually fight back

No... You have to count the amount of fighters with some GOOD measure of amatuer experience, use that as a benchmark and then compare that, through a ratio, fighters really successful/fighters average, not so successful. That would be a start. Then compare the number using a similar ratio of fighters who became professional with little amatuer experience...this would be the onlt way to determine this. Then you make more assumptions about "improvements." Boxing is a hybrid activity involving sports and combat... Most sports do evolve, and usually this can be traced. For example, You can trace modern football to Florida, circa early 1980's when Arthur Jones created Nautilus machines and a radical departure from original training principles... Football players could now work out less, more intensly, practice the sport more per a practice... the players got bigger stronger, nutritional advantages, including steriods were improved and one can radically distinguish a lineman like Artie Donovan from a modern lineman and there is no comparison. NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds, and athletes have plenty of other activities including combat sports... Boxers have NOT improved, it is a myth. Some fighters are an exception to the rule. There always will be a range of skill in the sport, but one can watch and see the things fighters did versus what they do today. Liston and Foreman were NOT small heavyweights! Look at their builds, their bone density... Usyk may weight more, but he has smaller bones, and his shoulders, wrists, neck are smaller. Liston and Foreman came in lighter for their fights because they had to. Look at later George Foreman! Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights? It was a preference and a necessity given the rounds, the activity level of the competition, etc. So now Ali's chin changed? :lol1: Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens. I don't know how Usyk would do against Ali. Ali had reflexes that would cancel out a lot of what Usyk does. Usyk is quick, but does not have exceptional speed... Jimmy Young IMO was a much stronger fighter, having speed, the polish that Usyk had, and the same ability to use accurate punches. He did beat a shopworn Ali... Imo. "NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds" All you have to do is look at the size of modern heavyweights to realise there has been a huge jump. Ali was massive in the 60's at 6'2.5, 210 lbs but today he'd be smaller than Usyk, who isn't even a career heavyweight. And the biggest elite athlete in boxing history Tyson Fury at 6'7.5, 256-273 lbs would make Ali look like a midget. Modern boxers throw more punches despite being much bigger. Compare the Compubox stats from Ali-Mildenberger to Usyk-Hunter for instance. All of the heavyweight punch stat records are modern. Ali was extremely crude and primitive technically compared to Usyk, Fury etc. He was a big athletic guy in the 60's who depended on his size and speed advantages. But offensively he was very limited (jab and right hand merchant, no body shots, limited front foot game) and defensively he was very easy to tag considering his physical advantages. Ali fought far less rounds than guys like Sullivan and Johnson, who fought with no round limit. It's meaningless. "Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights?" Only if they put on a lot of fat plus PED bulk. Foreman was 228 even as a mature man against Young in the 70's. It has nothing to do with "the output of the opponent" as Foreman for instance knew that many fights weren't going long, so there was an advantage in being heavier (better able to take shots, push the opponent back and do more damage to take the opponent out faster). Hence he was 224 lbs in the Frazier rematch. "Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens." Fury and Ali are both good examples of chins improving in their 30's relative to their 20's. Foreman was the same, probably Wlad too. Physical maturity, extra weight and greater composure can improve your ability to take a shot. People take the older Ali and assume that the younger Ali was better in every respect but this is false, just as the older Fury and Foreman were better in some/many respects than their younger versions.

Ali faced some of the hardest punchers... You have no proof that usyk got hit with harder shots. I have no direct proof that Inoue doesn't hit harder than Wlad Klitschko either. But I know that bigger men punch harder than smaller men (a major reason why there are weight categories) and I know that modern PED-enhanced athletes punch harder than athletes from 50-60 years ago who lack those advantages. A big punching 6'1, 200 lbs heavyweight from 1940 won't punch as hard as a big punching 6'6, 280 lbs heavyweight from 2020.

You must be talking about Sadam Ali. The guy has been stopped by 3 body shots and BS his way out of getting counted out. And it wasn't like he was fighting hall of famers or ATGs. In the real Ali era it was 15 rounds and you had to get off the canvas, none of that rolling around playing dead like a soccer player. I'm talking about the heavily hyped cultural symbol Ali who went life and death with Mildenberger, who barely ever threw a bodyshot in his life. Usyk has never been stopped on a bodyshot in reality, let alone three times. Every time he's been dropped he's got up to win. "ATG" says absolutely nothing about your ability between several eras. In Sullivan's era there were no round limits. Meaningless. 12 rounds are fought at a higher pace than 15. Rolling around on the floor = gamesmanship, playing to the referee. Usyk has a very high boxing IQ, hence he won again against a much bigger and more powerful man.

Vlad has been undefeated champion for about 10 years before Fury beat him. Learn something casual. Wlad was in that weak era that's why. He also cheated heavily against povetkin.