Hopkins or Toney - who was better?

Hopkins is good at the basics. He is good at positioning himself. He is good at sticking to a well thought out game plan. However Hopkins is not as adaptable as Toney. Toney was a master at figurin out opponents and adjusting accordingly. Can't say the same about Hopkins. Hopkins has nowhere near as vast a repertoire of punches as Toney. Hopkins is basic.... Just look at Toneys superb combos in his prime.... Hopkins punch power was never very good even at Middle... Toney hits a lot harder... Hopkins had to rely a lot on clinchin, head buttin etc because bhop doesn't have the defensive skills to do anything else... Toney had an excellent defense to match his cast iron chin. EDIT: Forgot to add that Hopkins was garbage on the inside compared to Toney. And Didn't you say you weren't sure who was stronger? Toney is stronger and THAT is not debatable....... If what you are saying were true Toney wouldn't have the amazing wins he has..... I mean do you guys really rate Tiberi that highly? Do you really believe that was the best of Toney that night? Do you really think drake thadzi is better than Mccallum, Jirov, Nunn, Ruiz etc Who do you consider braver? Toney Or Hopkins? Who do you consider tougher? Why don't you list Toneys weaknesses??? Other than big macs and whoppers... You simply don't know what's in front of you. James Toney better at adapting than Hopkins? James Toney a "master" at figuring out opponents? Name me one opponent he figured out. Toney threw good combos, but he threw them in spurts. He wasn't consistent with them. This is what caused him to get outworked and drop rounds and thus lose/struggle in fights. I agree Toney hit harder. Hopkins wasn't "garbage" on the inside compared to Toney but I wouldn't argue with giving Toney the edge there. Toney's weaknesses; Poor footwork, can't cut off a ring or fight off the back foot effectively. Can't make adjustments, not very high ring IQ Loads up too much on punches often causes him to get tired Never blocked a right hook to the body in his life Can't avoid a jab And finally, you said "he wouldn't have the amazing wins he does" What amazing wins are these?

Hopkins is good at the basics. He is good at positioning himself. He is good at sticking to a well thought out game plan. However Hopkins is not as adaptable as Toney. Toney was a master at figurin out opponents and adjusting accordingly. Can't say the same about Hopkins. Hopkins has nowhere near as vast a repertoire of punches as Toney. Hopkins is basic.... Just look at Toneys superb combos in his prime.... Hopkins punch power was never very good even at Middle... Toney hits a lot harder... Hopkins had to rely a lot on clinchin, head buttin etc because bhop doesn't have the defensive skills to do anything else... Toney had an excellent defense to match his cast iron chin. EDIT: Forgot to add that Hopkins was garbage on the inside compared to Toney. And Didn't you say you weren't sure who was stronger? Toney is stronger and THAT is not debatable....... If what you are saying were true Toney wouldn't have the amazing wins he has..... I mean do you guys really rate Tiberi that highly? Do you really believe that was the best of Toney that night? Do you really think drake thadzi is better than Mccallum, Jirov, Nunn, Ruiz etc Who do you consider braver? Toney Or Hopkins? Who do you consider tougher? Why don't you list Toneys weaknesses??? Other than big macs and whoppers... I can't be bothered with an in depth response right now, but one of Toney's weaknesses was fighting movers.

The debate in this thread has been great. Hopkins all the way for me. These are literally two of my favorite every fighters, but Toney is so overrated by hardcore fans yet underrated by the media. Toney was a brilliant fighter but he also had many limitations. Everyone always makes excuses for Toney's failings but it's not even close to being true that all his losses were because he didn't train or wasn't motivated. Both are greats, Hopkins is greater. I agree that Hopkins wouldn't compete at heavy, but that doesn't mean Toney is greater it just means that his style (and ridiculously good chin) is better suited to going up in weight.

I think that's certainly debatable. That's fair

Ok so let me ask you this? Do you agree with Hopkins that Toney was the more talented fighter or do you disagree with that too? I think that's certainly debatable.

No I'm suprised it's close because Toney is so overrated on forums that I'd expect him to be much further in the lead. I don't know what I'm talking about :lol1: OK mate. Yeah he "won" if you ignore the fact it was a robbery. But why ignore it? It's one of the biggest robberies of all time it's the eqiuvilent to pretending that Whitaker didn't beat Chavez. I'm not acting like you're referencing nobodies. However you're acting like other men's words are gospel. Fighters aren't honest. How many times have you seen a fighters say so and so was their best opponent or toughest fight when it's abundantly clear it wasn't? Either way all it is their opinion anyway. It's not a point. And Hopkins never said Toney is better than him he said he was more talented, you seem to consider that the same thing for whatever reason but it isn't. And that's also debatable. Ok so let me ask you this? Do you agree with Hopkins that Toney was the more talented fighter or do you disagree with that too?

its 2016, whether you watched it live or while you're taking a ***** on youtube this year, it makes no difference. let that nostalgia bull go when their is video His best wins were over named welterweights but he also beat the best middleweight contenders and not no name mandatories So you're telling me Hopkins didn't beat the best MW contenders? Which MW's didn't he beat? Hagler beat his share of "no names" aswell. I've found myself struggling to grasp the point of the rest of your post once again. Nostalgia? What?

I have Hagler in my top 5 MW's. I don't need the likes of you to tell me about Hagler I actually witnessed these peoples career's as they unfolded. I am suprised that you rate Hagler. Weren't his best wins against Welterweights? its 2016, whether you watched it live or while you're taking a ***** on youtube this year, it makes no difference. let that nostalgia bull go when their is video His best wins were over named welterweights but he also beat the best middleweight contenders and not no name mandatories

you're in the minority on the bolded anyone with a brain has Hagler top 5 all time at middleweight he wasnt at the championship level then because the MFer didnt get a title shot til like 50 fights in. its not like how it is today when these guys get title shots before they even fight a legit top ten contender I have Hagler in my top 5 MW's. I don't need the likes of you to tell me about Hagler I actually witnessed these peoples career's as they unfolded. I am suprised that you rate Hagler. Weren't his best wins against Welterweights?

Hopkins was gettin schooled that night. So he did what he always does. GIVE UP! LOL!!!! Are you related to punk Hopkins???? You really DKSAB!!! I am not a fan of Hopkins. And Hopkins way more skilled than Toney. That's not even debatable.

only guy out of that overrated title reign, that MAY trouble Toney is Taylor....unlike Hopkins who only has 1 or 2 gears....Toney knew how to turn it on when the fight was in the balance, like vs littles, nunn, and jirov. Toney has a better chance going undefeated vs Hopkins opposition, than Hopkins does going against McCallum, Nunn, Johnson, and company that Toney fought at 160. Toney fought better competition and didnt lose til he went to 168. saying tiberi won over and over isnt gonna change the official result...wanna see a robbery....go watch Emmanuel Augustus vs courtney burton hopkins was done for if the pace wasnt HIS pace. Toney-Tiberi WAS a robbery. Are you trying to dispute that? Toney can't even beat the likes of Tiberi, Thadzi and scrapes SD's and draws with Williams and Sosa I very much doubt he goes through Hopkins MW reign undefeated. And I agree there's no way Hopkins goes through Toney's oppositon undefeated but I doubt he'd lose and draw with the guys Toney did. I don't think he'd beat McCallum but then again I don't think Toney beat McCallum either.

Hard to say because Hopkins never went to CW but I'd expect Hopkins to beat a Jirov level opponent. Depends how he'd adjust to the weight. HW, really hard to say. Not sure of your point. I'd agree Toney is faster, although he's hardly a speed demon. Chin, yeah I agree Toney has the edge there. He's defintely not more skillful and whether he's stronger is debatable. Hopkins MW reign is not strong but like I said I very much doubt Toney goes through it undefeated. Hopkins damn sure wouldnt go through Toney's undefeated...toney actually defeated elite middleweights in his reign, unlike hopkins

You sound like a mug.... You don't rate Marvin Hagler or James Toney..... But you do rate Bernard "no heart" Hopkins.... Hopkins is a mentally weak man. He gave up against Calzaghe and Kov... He gave up When he was bein outboxed by robert allen in their second fight... He faked an injury against dawson in the first fight cos he was scared.... He then behaved like a journeyman who is content to lose for money in the second fight..... The only thing Hopkins will be remembered for is his shelf life. That and being a boring and dirty fighter who lacked balls....... I don't rate Hopkins highly. But I certainly rate Hagler and Hopkins A LOT higher than Toney.

You're talking to me like I'm a Hopkins fan, I'm not. I agree his reign isn't special. Although Toney wouldn't go through it undefeated. only guy out of that overrated title reign, that MAY trouble Toney is Taylor....unlike Hopkins who only has 1 or 2 gears....Toney knew how to turn it on when the fight was in the balance, like vs littles, nunn, and jirov. Toney has a better chance going undefeated vs Hopkins opposition, than Hopkins does going against McCallum, Nunn, Johnson, and company that Toney fought at 160. Toney fought better competition and didnt lose til he went to 168. saying tiberi won over and over isnt gonna change the official result...wanna see a robbery....go watch Emmanuel Augustus vs courtney burton hopkins was done for if the pace wasnt HIS pace.

Only one of those quotes was said by me... I've noticed you seem to have some sort of extreme hatred for Toney.... Did he make you look a b*tch in sparring or something??? If we're talkin top tier opposition.... Why does most of Bhops middleweight reign consist of small shot bums?? He had a trilogy with Robert f*ckin Allen...... Now stop ducking my questions you filthy coward. What would happen If bhop was fightin Jirov, Holyfield Sam Peters etc... Prime for Prime Toney was faster, stronger, more skillful, had a better chin and most importantly he was BRAVER then bhop.... The worst thing about bhop is when he knows he gonna lose he just gives up. He either becomes a spoiler or fakes an injury like a true sh*theel... Toney never gives up.... Hard to say because Hopkins never went to CW but I'd expect Hopkins to beat a Jirov level opponent. Depends how he'd adjust to the weight. HW, really hard to say. Not sure of your point. I'd agree Toney is faster, although he's hardly a speed demon. Chin, yeah I agree Toney has the edge there. He's defintely not more skillful and whether he's stronger is debatable. Hopkins MW reign is not strong but like I said I very much doubt Toney goes through it undefeated.

Hagler wasn't at championship level then but Hagler's another story I don't rate Hagler that highly either. Of course a lot higher than Toney though. you're in the minority on the bolded anyone with a brain has Hagler top 5 all time at middleweight he wasnt at the championship level then because the MFer didnt get a title shot til like 50 fights in. its not like how it is today when these guys get title shots before they even fight a legit top ten contender

newsflash, a fighters opponents and level of opposition is the best way to assess the skill level and limitations of a fighter.....Hopkins fought crap competition at 160 until the end of his title reign. When he fought trinidad it was his first elite( he was elite at 147 and 154 but a good fighter at 160 nothing special) title challenger in like 13-14 defenses....thats pathetic and simiar to GGG how would I know if Hopkins is "better" versus movers when he went 12 years between fighting elite middleweights with good speed.....Jones in 93 and taylor in 2005, I dont consider Tito an elite middleweight because his record there is spotty. Also robert Allen got 3 title shots for christs sake...he was wholly average and troubled Hopins IN HIS PRIME with his speed and movement. In no way is trinidad at 160, better than reggie johnson....johnson would have been a tougher time with Johnson, who was a natural middleweight with speed, power, and elusiveness.....hell I'd favor johnson over trinidad at 160..styles make fights bro....Hopkins title reign at 160 is nothing to write home about You're talking to me like I'm a Hopkins fan, I'm not. I agree his reign isn't special. Although Toney wouldn't go through it undefeated.

Only one of those quotes was said by me... I've noticed you seem to have some sort of extreme hatred for Toney.... Did he make you look a b*tch in sparring or something??? If we're talkin top tier opposition.... Why does most of Bhops middleweight reign consist of small shot bums?? He had a trilogy with Robert f*ckin Allen...... Now stop ducking my questions you filthy coward. What would happen If bhop was fightin Jirov, Holyfield Sam Peters etc... Prime for Prime Toney was faster, stronger, more skillful, had a better chin and most importantly he was BRAVER then bhop.... The worst thing about bhop is when he knows he gonna lose he just gives up. He either becomes a spoiler or fakes an injury like a true sh*theel... Toney never gives up.... before the flop, allen could have beat him...Hopkins didnt face top tier middleweights most of his title reign

Hagler also lost to boogaloo watts and willie the worm monroe....by your logic, he loses to Robert Allen and Joe Lipsey right? same level of fighter right? repeating the names tiberi and thadzi wont change fact that Toney also has better wins at 160 than Hopkins and fought and beat better fighters those are facts...deal with it :smashfrea Hagler wasn't at championship level then but Hagler's another story I don't rate Hagler that highly either. Of course a lot higher than Toney though.

Pretty sure he's referring to Tiberi and Thadzi not Griffin. Well, Hagler beat top level opposition convincgly and in dominant fashion unlike Toney. And do you actually rate Hagler? His biggest wins are against "welterweights" much like Hopkins. What's Hopkins worst? Fights into his 40's? losing to a no name in the beginning of his career, going the rest of it until he fought taylor without taking many risks...pricing himself out vs jones in a rematch....why? because he knew he couldnt adjust to Jones' style, speed, elusiveness. not adjusting to Jones, who is the only truly elite talent he faced in fight one with Robert Allen getting outboxed and on the verge of losing before falling out the ring....he fought this wholly average guy 3 times he spent his entire ibf title reign fighting nobodies....go look at who Toney was fighting for the ibf title Hopkins is a special case, like Archie Moore, Mike McCallum, Joe Walcott, some fighters can remain elite at an advanced age. you cant give him all the credit in the world for his wins, then try to discredit his loses. Jermain Taylor was nothing special......Hopkins is supposed to have this high ring IQ, technician but couldnt figure of Taylor with 2 tries also Hopkins finds a way out win he is on his way to losing......Robert allen, chad dawson, flopping in other fights...its pathetic