Clinching discussion: Thoughts, opinions, when is it acceptable?

Wlad didn't have to clinch, though. There were a half dozen moments in that fight where Wlad would counter and hurt Povetkin, and then clinch him when he was hurt, allowing Povetkin to recover. He was literally walking forward and reaching out to clinch. And again, Povetkin's lack of skill doesn't excuse Wlad. Povetkin did the same thing over and over because he had no idea how to handle someone clinching him that much. I can't blame him for not knowing. Wlad does it in every fight, whenever his opponent gets within arm's reach. Even the first half of the first round that Leapai managed to move forward and apply pressure, Wlad clinched every time. The man is a cheating clincher. Obviously Wlad made the easy choices that night and he landed every meaningful punch in that fight. I don't know how Povetkin even got up toward the end. Still most of what happened because of what Povetkin did and Wlad reacting to that, Wlad being the better fighter should dictate the fight better and not be so reactive so it was not a good performance at all from him. It is no secret what Wlad would do if you rushed him like Povetkin did, it was the obvious thing Wlad was going to do. So for the biggest fight of his life Povetkin should have been prepared for that. I am not saying Wlad doesn't wrap guys up all the time I was talking specifically about the Povetkin fight. Another thing that bugged me about that fight was Povetkin was bull rushing in but was unwilling to use that momentum to bully Wlad who while strong physically I think he could get bullied but Povetkin wanting to be a sportsman robbed me of seeing that. So he only had like half a plan for the fight which made that fight even worse. Povetkin or anyone in his position needs to do a lot more for me to be very sympathetic to their issues with clinching. If a guy does all they can and that was the deciding factor I can see being upset, but so often guys just fall a part when they get clinched and just give up.

Sticking to the Wlad-Povetkin thing because that was what I wanted to chat about anyway, although I disagree about the other stuff though both were roughly the same dealing with a wild physical fighters just one was more tricky vet while the other was a better athlete. Agree to disagree on that though. Povetkin was certainly trying to get past Wlad's range but he was wild and sloppy with it pushing way to far in instead of stopping short in punching range. He was always pressing through Wlad as if he was trying to tackle him. Wlad certainly played his part just letting this occur but Povetkin played a huge role. Once a pattern is established where a guy expects certain things a smart fighter will take preemptive action It was a terrible fight because of what they both did, that is my main issue with people calling out clinching though I like seeing what the other guy did to help create that situation and what did they do to actually avoid it because it is almost always a two way street even in the worst examples. Wlad didn't have to clinch, though. There were a half dozen moments in that fight where Wlad would counter and hurt Povetkin, and then clinch him when he was hurt, allowing Povetkin to recover. He was literally walking forward and reaching out to clinch. And again, Povetkin's lack of skill doesn't excuse Wlad. Povetkin did the same thing over and over because he had no idea how to handle someone clinching him that much. I can't blame him for not knowing. Wlad does it in every fight, whenever his opponent gets within arm's reach. Even the first half of the first round that Leapai managed to move forward and apply pressure, Wlad clinched every time. The man is a cheating clincher.

No way, Povetkin was trying to get past the height and reach because it was his only chance. Wlad was reaching out and clinching EVERY SINGLE TIME Povetkin got within arm's reach. Just because Povetkin isn't skilled enough to combat the clinching doesn't mean Wlad was right to do it. He was a disgrace, and his performance in that fight is one of the worst in heavyweight championship history. And there's a clear difference between Brook/Porter and Mayweather/Maidana. Porter had faster feet and was jumping into Brook over and over. Like I said, Brook has few options there. Porter was even the one initiating at least half the clinches, especially late. Mayweather was reaching out like Wlad and tying Maidana up when Maidana was trying to get past the reach and initiate his offense. Like Wlad, he was clinching not to neutralize a wild fighter, but to spoil the fight. And he got away with, like Wlad, because the ref was terrible and let him do so. Sticking to the Wlad-Povetkin thing because that was what I wanted to chat about anyway, although I disagree about the other stuff though both were roughly the same dealing with a wild physical fighters just one was more tricky vet while the other was a better athlete. Agree to disagree on that though. Povetkin was certainly trying to get past Wlad's range but he was wild and sloppy with it pushing way too far in instead of stopping short in punching range. He was always pressing through Wlad as if he was trying to tackle him. He also failed to work on the way in and while inside even when he had free arms. Wlad certainly played his part just letting this occur and taking huge advantage of the situation but Povetkin played a huge role also. Once a pattern is established where a guy expects certain things a smart fighter will take preemptive action, I don't like faulting guys for the correct fighting instinct (to win). It was a terrible fight because of what they both did, that is my main issue with people calling out clinching though I like seeing what the other guy did to help create that situation and what did they do to actually avoid it because it is almost always a two way street even in the worst examples.

To play devel's adovacate Most people bring up Wlad-Povetkin as the gold standard on the topic and rightly so. That is essentially what Povetkin was doing though wildly bull rushing in low pretty much forcing Wlad into doing what he did. Then Povetkin made it even worse by doing no work on the way in or once he got in. It takes two to tango like that I don't see the distinction between Brook-Porter and Mayweather-Maidana 2 they are both pretty similar examples. No way, Povetkin was trying to get past the height and reach because it was his only chance. Wlad was reaching out and clinching EVERY SINGLE TIME Povetkin got within arm's reach. Just because Povetkin isn't skilled enough to combat the clinching doesn't mean Wlad was right to do it. He was a disgrace, and his performance in that fight is one of the worst in heavyweight championship history. And there's a clear difference between Brook/Porter and Mayweather/Maidana. Porter had faster feet and was jumping into Brook over and over. Like I said, Brook has few options there. Porter was even the one initiating at least half the clinches, especially late. Mayweather was reaching out like Wlad and tying Maidana up when Maidana was trying to get past the reach and initiate his offense. Like Wlad, he was clinching not to neutralize a wild fighter, but to spoil the fight. And he got away with, like Wlad, because the ref was terrible and let him do so.

Clinching is okay when an opponent is clumsily bullrushing a fighter, like Brook/Porter. I don't like it, but Brook has few options against someone who fought as wild as Porter, constantly in his face and swinging punches behind his head. Clinching is NOT okay when a fighter is reaching out to clinch when there's no reason, like Wlad does against everyone and Mayweather did against Maidana. To play devel's adovacate Most people bring up Wlad-Povetkin as the gold standard on the topic and rightly so. That is essentially what Povetkin was doing though wildly bull rushing in low pretty much forcing Wlad into doing what he did. Then Povetkin made it even worse by doing no work on the way in or once he got in. It takes two to tango like that I don't see the distinction between Brook-Porter and Mayweather-Maidana 2 they are both pretty similar examples.

Clinching is okay when an opponent is clumsily bullrushing a fighter, like Brook/Porter. I don't like it, but Brook has few options against someone who fought as wild as Porter, constantly in his face and swinging punches behind his head. Clinching is NOT okay when a fighter is reaching out to clinch when there's no reason, like Wlad does against everyone and Mayweather did against Maidana.

Most points that need to be made have already been made. End thread now. This is boring.

I wouldn't say it is a terrible idea but do you trust the ref to keep track of that and everything else that is going on. It can be solved by bringing in an extra ref for that purpose. I think it would be tricky to implement and I am much more on the fighters deciding things than a ref being involved like. Interesting Idea I certainly wouldn't call it bad Not only this but who do you blame? They guy charging in, smothering himself, swinging wildly and using his head or the opponent trying to protect himself and tame the wild animal. A lot of times the guy being clinched is at fault for fighting like a caveman (see Porter vs. Brook). I like the rules the way they are. If you are good enough, clinching won't stop you.

Would it be a good idea, even possible to have a number of permitted clinches per round? Lets say fighters are allowed to have 5 clinches per round. Its then up to them to distribute the amount of times they clinch in a round if any. If they clinch a 6th time even if they're hurt they have a point deducted. Clinches are never carried over after a round. This may be difficult for fighters themselves to actually count the amount of clinches but it makes it very easy for the ref have a clear guide in terms of policing clinches. There would also need to be very explicit rules around what constitutes a clinch. What do you think? Good or sheeyt idea? I wouldn't say it is a terrible idea but do you trust the ref to keep track of that and everything else that is going on. It can be solved by bringing in an extra ref for that purpose. I think it would be tricky to implement and I am much more on the fighters deciding things than a ref being involved like. Interesting Idea I certainly wouldn't call it bad

Not sure, honestly I have never heard of it.. Plus there is so many rule books. Unified rules WBC rules Ibf rules Wbo rules WBA rules State commission rules In all honesty the only rules are what everyone agrees to that night, there is no consistency with rules from fight to fight Every sport is kind of like that, it is down to how the ref or offical calls the game that day. How they do the job usually doesn't matter as long as the official is consistent with both sides. This is not a boxing only issue, just boxing is extremely unforgiving with it's circumstances.

I didn't see Floyd perform one of these: http://i.minus.com/ib11JDxNlfy2Xo.gif I only watched the Floyd fight once, so can't really say too much other than I didn't think it was THAT bad as I watched it. Wlad's fight with Povetkin was completely different. Oh, so Floyd possibly didn't push Maidana's head down, but he pushes it every other way with his elbow. That's clean. :lol1: But I was talking about towards the end of the fight where Wlad did a lead clinch with no punch thrown. I remember Floyd doing the exact maneuver.

I didn't see Floyd perform one of these: http://i.minus.com/ib11JDxNlfy2Xo.gif I only watched the Floyd fight once, so can't really say too much other than I didn't think it was THAT bad as I watched it. Wlad's fight with Povetkin was completely different. Yeah, although height difference lends itself to situations with the smaller guy under the bigger, this tactic by Wlad or other bigger guys is abusive. Some would say well its up to the smaller guy to avoid this but Id say if you are the champ or considered to be the best you draw more criticizm to yourself for not using you superior skills alone to win.

Floyd did that same reach out and hug someone maneuver Wlad did against Povetkin. It's no wonder that hardcore fans of both even had a hard time praising their performances those nights, citing age and talking about retirement. I didn't see Floyd perform one of these: http://i.minus.com/ib11JDxNlfy2Xo.gif I only watched the Floyd fight once, so can't really say too much other than I didn't think it was THAT bad as I watched it. Wlad's fight with Povetkin was completely different.

It's clearly not the same tactics, and also Floyd doesn't have a 10 year history of excessive clinching. Floyd did that same reach out and hug someone maneuver Wlad did against Povetkin. It's no wonder that hardcore fans of both even had a hard time praising their performances those nights, citing age and talking about retirement.

I thought it says in the rulebook that 15 initiated clinches is a point deduction? Or something close. Not sure, honestly I have never heard of it.. Plus there is so many rule books. Unified rules WBC rules Ibf rules Wbo rules WBA rules State commission rules In all honesty the only rules are what everyone agrees to that night, there is no consistency with rules from fight to fight

A clinch limit is a good idea... 2 or 3 per round I thought it says in the rulebook that 15 initiated clinches is a point deduction? Or something close.

If Floyd does the clinching it's acceptable, but if it's Wlad it's not. It's clearly not the same tactics, and also Floyd doesn't have a 10 year history of excessive clinching.

Problem is at times it is not so obvious who initiated the clinch.

Clinching IMO should only be done when hurt. So if somebody clinches, that should tell the judges "I am hurt" and trying to survive. Which would then not be favorable to the clincher. This would result in better boxing matches.

A clinch limit is a good idea... 2 or 3 per round