Post Benitez/Leonard/Hearns/Duran Welterweight Top 20

The bold part. A lil biased if you ask me. You put Whitaker A for ODH and B for Tito. ODH beat Whitaker in a controversial win. but then you put ODH B under Tito because it was a controversial win. Oscar did have a controversial win but it was by no means a robbery. Many writers at the time thought Whitaker had made the fight tough for Oscar, he'd made it ugly but Whitaker's activity was just too low and by this stage he was more concerned with clowning than winning rounds. Oscar won the fight but didn't look good doing it, a rarity at this point in his career and much like Marquez, Whitaker and a few fans screamed robbery when there was no such thing. With the Tito fight, you just have to watch it to see that Oscar won a minimum of 7 rounds, that is a bare minimum, I'd have him winning 8 or 9. Yes he looked lackadaisical in the "championship" rounds and I gave Tito those rounds but winning scraps at the end of the battle does not make you the victor. It is quite possibly the worst decision I have ever seen, ranked nicely alongside Whitaker/Chavez and Pacquiao/Bradley. Even giving credit to Felix for that win is a massive step.

Don't know what you were doing but most I knew all thought he was clearly at the end of his career, and while people didn't realise how shot he actually was, they knew he done as a great fighter at the top. He looked awful against Steve Forbes, and a lot of people were saying he was done after seeing that fight. A lot. That's why Roach and everyone was so confident with the fight. It was clear to a lot of people that he was done. It is interesting though the way you spin each win. Oscar was more shot than Mosley, whatever people thought before. He also hadn't won a top fight in many years, while Mosley, despite coming off inactivity, was still coming off one of the greatest wins of his whole career and looked incredible in it. Anyway, we all have our biases. I explained my reasoning well enough I believe. Tell me how many people, involved in boxing, journalists and fighters, thought that Pacquiao could win. It was like a 70-30 divide in favour of Oscar, even after the weight issues which were being rumoured for a few weeks. We all saw Mosley against Margarito and it was a great win but every great fighter has one last great performance. This was his, just before we'd seen him struggle for 12 rounds against an almost past it Mayorga. Then came the almost year and a half of inactivity, in which he went to 2 training camps and it was pretty obvious that this was no the same Mosley. In fact, there was criticism leveled at Mayweather for a long time during and after the build up with regards to facing Mosley at such a late stage in his career. None of this is anything other than fact. I really have nothing more to say on this matter because there is nothing more to say. Edit: It's not just that Pacquiao won, it's how he won. In fact, the few who thought Pacquiao would win, including friend Matthew Hurley, thought it would be via close decision. No one expected that utter annihilation.

top 20 is a bit hard. I based mine on A level competition beaten and faced. I didn't rank one win wonders too highly or guys who just beat around the bush fighting b level guys so that's why you will see guys like forrest and floyd so low. i didn't do some piece of sh-ite fantasy who would beat who either. i ranked them on what they did do and how guys performed in fights even if "officially" there's an L where i don't agree. 1. marlon starling 2. oscar de la hoya 3. donald curry 4. mosley 5. honeyghan 6. margarito 7. pac 8. cotto 9. whitaker 10. trinidad 11. mayweather 12. mayorga 13. breland 14. clottey 15. quartey 16. spinks 17. brown 18. forrest 19. williams 20. mcgirt Daggum, you have Clottey above Brown, Forrest, McGirt, Spinks and Quartey? That is insane. Clottey's best win is a past it Judah. That's actually it. That's about all he did, apart from Corrales. You've got him above Simon Brown.....:pat: Clottey literally did nothing in comparison to all of these guys. He should be 20, at the highest. Brown unified the division, made 8 defences over 3 years, beat champions like Blocker, Vaca, Trice, Santana....only lost to two of the very best champs. What the hell man? Quartey lost once at the weight, to Oscar in a very close arguable SD, that most actually thought he snuck. He also got jobbed against Lopez, initially winning it which was obvious, then somehow it got changed to a MDraw. He actually beat a champion, and made numerous good defences. It's unarguable that he's better than Clottey, by a long, long way. Even McGirt. He beat Simon Brown for his 147 title. A unified champion. Not a vacant, paper title against a broken, faded fighter. That one win annihilates Clotteys whole career, and we don't even need to look at his others. As much as I love Clottey, he simply doesn't belong. He lost every single big fight he had, won a vacant title off a past it Judah....then lost it in his very next fight. A shot Diego Corrales and a past it Judah are his best wins, by a long way. Jesus man! What were you thinking! Get him off! Forrest beat prime, undefeated Mosley x 2. That alone, better by lightyears. You say he's a one win wonder? Clottey has so much less than that. His best wins are literally, Judah, Corrales and then Jose Luis Cruz, a low rated contender. Vernon has P4P number one, undefeated, prime Mosley x 2, Phillips, Oliveira. Top heavy, but its better than being not even anything heavy. Clottey isn't even a one win wonder. He doesn't have a win that is even a vague local country hit. You've even got Spinks below him? He beat a prime Judah. He also beat champions Picirillo, Pineda, Vaca, Gonzalez, he unified the division against Mayorga, became the Undisputed, lineal champion and made 4 or 5 defenses. Man, my brain hurts. This is serious NSB madness at work. Why is Margarito above these guys too?

All choices are ultimately subjective but mine are based in reality. No one in their right mind who understand this sport thought Mosley would be Mayweather, at 39 and inactive for almost a year and a half and had had 2 training camps, even a prime fighter would be burnt out after such a rigorous routine. It was general knowledge within the boxing community that Mosley was on his way out of the sport. Wih regards to Oscar, no one and I mean no one in boxing thought he was shot before Pacquiao. These are just thoughts. Maybe you weren't around when these fights happened live or are too young but it's what the world saw at the time. It wasn't just casual fans who thought Pacquiao would lose, almost every boxing reporter I spoke to thought the same, some prominent names included. As you can probably tell, I have rarely used official ranking as a basis for my list, why? Because they are all corrupted, with GBP owning The Ring etc and bias from various boxing organisations. I'm going by what learned people in boxing thought at the time. No one believed Baldomir was the number one welterweight on the planet, yes he had the official title but nothing more. Don't know what you were doing but most I knew all thought he was clearly at the end of his career, and while people didn't realise how shot he actually was, they knew he done as a great fighter at the top. He looked awful against Steve Forbes, and a lot of people were saying he was done after seeing that fight. A lot. That's why Roach and everyone was so confident with the fight. It was clear to a lot of people that he was done. It is interesting though the way you spin each win. Oscar was more shot than Mosley, whatever people thought before. He also hadn't won a top fight in many years, while Mosley, despite coming off inactivity, was still coming off one of the greatest wins of his whole career and looked incredible in it. Anyway, we all have our biases.

Of course, Margarito at the time was coming off of beating Cotto....no, annihilating him and making him take a knee. Margarito was the baddest man in the division at the time. Mosley battered him. That is an "A" win. Oscar beat Whitaker who at the time was undefeated at the weight, WBC champ and regarded as the best welterweight on the planet. Oscar beat him and although some say it was controversial, Oscar beat the best welterweight on the planet and caused Sweet Peas work rate to drop. Yes Whitaker made it difficult and the fight looked clumsy but some of those rights and lefts that Whitaker tasted in the early rounds made him decide he'd rather make it ugly than try to win. A win. Mayweather beat an almost shot to hell version of Mosley, if I had a Z ranking I'd place that win there. Clottey was one of the top 5 leading welterweights at the time who had given Cotto hell and a legitimate contender for Pacquiao. Not only did the Pacman win, he won a complete shutout, the gulf between the two was vast. The Oscar win is a "B" because the general consensus amongst fans, journalists and fighters was that Oscar would destroy Pacquiao, too big, too strong etc. Pacquiao knocked Oscar into retirement. Baldomir is quite possibly the worst welterweight champion ever, who caught Judah going through one of his "phases". Mayweather won and yes he won the so called lineal title but he did not look impressive at all, other great welterweights of the past would have battered Baldomir into oblivion. The Judah win is not an A because he had lost to Baldomir and because Mayweather struggled against him for 5 rounds, looking mediocre at best in those rounds. Yes he stepped it up but the performance was not exactly a classic, jaw dropping crowning of a great champion. Hatton was moving up in weight and again, Mayweather was given hell for 10 rounds, especially the first 5 or 6, before the referee and Mayweather's conditioning kicked in. The bold part. A lil biased if you ask me. You put Whitaker A for ODH and B for Tito. ODH beat Whitaker in a controversial win. but then you put ODH B under Tito because it was a controversial win.

top 20 is a bit hard. I based mine on A level competition beaten and faced. I didn't rank one win wonders too highly or guys who just beat around the bush fighting b level guys so that's why you will see guys like forrest and floyd so low. i didn't do some piece of sh-ite fantasy who would beat who either. i ranked them on what they did do and how guys performed in fights even if "officially" there's an L where i don't agree. 1. marlon starling 2. oscar de la hoya 3. donald curry 4. mosley 5. honeyghan 6. margarito 7. pac 8. cotto 9. whitaker 10. trinidad 11. mayweather 12. mayorga 13. breland 14. clottey 15. quartey 16. spinks 17. brown 18. forrest 19. williams 20. mcgirt

Surely if you're going by the definitions set at the top TS, and with the standard set for the others, Judah should be a B for Floyd or a C for Cotto. You've got him as a B win for Cotto, but only C for Floyd. Floyd fought a Judah coming off one loss. Cotto fought him when he hadn't won a fight in over two years in three fights and hadn't even fought a full round in over a year. Both struggled early, Cotto shaken up a few times and struggled to adjust against a worse version of Judah. He also hurt Cotto and had him looking very shaky through the early rounds, just like he does most people. Cotto looked more vulnerable early than Floyd against a Judah that was in the longest winless streak of his entire career. Floyd also had trouble against Judah's early speed, but really took over pretty quickly and while he didn't stop Judah, it was a pretty brutal beating and dominant performance against a Judah that was only one fight removed from being the lineal, Undisputed welterweight champion. Just stopping Judah late, doesn't equal a better win for Cotto.

Mosleys trainer: "a block fell out" which part is exaggerated? Either a block fell out or it didn't. He either loaded his gloves or he didn't. Inspector: It looked like a cast plaster So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie So give an unexaggerated version of "a block fell out" It has been exaggerated. It was basically thickened gauze, if that makes sense. Normal gauze that looked slightly hardened and thickened. In all likelihood, it made absolutely not the slightest bit of difference to any part of any punch whatsoever in that fight. Considering he was busting Cotto up and hurting him as early as round 2, before the padding would have crushed.....It's highly unlikely it had any effect. I guess you never know. It was overblown out of all proportion though.

floyd fans getting mad that floyd's great triangle wins are being sh-it on. love it! floyd beat the guy who beat the dangerous guy what a win! even hatton shouldn't be a B win. he had 1 fight against collazo and looked terrible. a guy like marlon starling should be A level and probably in the top 3. he beat honeyghan, brown, and breland while losing a razor close fight to curry. guys like honeyghan, curry, and starling should all be well above floyd. Marlon will feature in my top 20, just missed out on the top 10. Should he be above Mayweather? I don't think so, he was a some way below Mayweather in terms of skills and we mustn't forget that Floyd still has some good wins at the weight. Hatton had a terrific outing against Mayweather in my opinion, Ricky did us proud.

You made some valid points. But you rate the wins very subjectively and without consistency. You knew ODH was shot when he fought manny but elevate the win given what people thought. Then you ignore what people thought about shane when he fought floyd and base his being shot on him losing the fight. Most fans were saying floyd was afraid of SHane and that shane would beat him. SHane didn't fight between beating Margs and losing to floyd. He was widely considered the #1 ww in the world. How does one go from great to shot with out fighting? Most casual fans thought Manny would ose to ODH. You are using what people thought. That doesn't change what ODH really was-an old fighte who returned to 147 after years of being at 154 and 160. You penalize the Hatton win because he was moving up yet don't mitigate the ODH win for manny when nhe was moving down. Baldomir,we agree, may be the worst lineal ww champion ever. But he was still lineal ww champion. That is above where clottey was ranked. He beat zab just like clottey did. Its almost as if you are rating clottey's zab win ahead of Baldo's. All choices are ultimately subjective but mine are based in reality. No one in their right mind who understand this sport thought Mosley would be Mayweather, at 39 and inactive for almost a year and a half and had had 2 training camps, even a prime fighter would be burnt out after such a rigorous routine. It was general knowledge within the boxing community that Mosley was on his way out of the sport. Wih regards to Oscar, no one and I mean no one in boxing thought he was shot before Pacquiao. These are just thoughts. Maybe you weren't around when these fights happened live or are too young but it's what the world saw at the time. It wasn't just casual fans who thought Pacquiao would lose, almost every boxing reporter I spoke to thought the same, some prominent names included. As you can probably tell, I have rarely used official ranking as a basis for my list, why? Because they are all corrupted, with GBP owning The Ring etc and bias from various boxing organisations. I'm going by what learned people in boxing thought at the time. No one believed Baldomir was the number one welterweight on the planet, yes he had the official title but nothing more.

floyd fans getting mad that floyd's great triangle wins are being sh-it on. love it! floyd beat the guy who beat the dangerous guy what a win! even hatton shouldn't be a B win. he had 1 fight against collazo and looked terrible. a guy like marlon starling should be A level and probably in the top 3. he beat honeyghan, brown, and breland while losing a razor close fight to curry. guys like honeyghan, curry, and starling should all be well above floyd.

There is a great thread on this forum focusing on the best welterweights since the era of the Fab 4, or the Triumphant 3, considering that the Marvelous One never fought at welterweight. Anyway, this got me thinking of the 20 best names in the division since, how would I rate them? Where do they stand? How many of them can be considered great (strictly looking at their welterweight standings)? What criteria would I use? So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory. I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins. Using the above criteria, I have come up with the following top 10 (remainder of the top 20 will follow): 1. Oscar De La Hoya Wins A: Whitaker and Quartey B: Carr C: Chavez Sr, Rivera, Gatti and Camacho D: Kamau, Charpentier and Coley Losses A very controversial first loss to Felix Trinidad, which really should be a win, with Oscar winning between 7-9 rounds on most cards outside of the judges involved. Second loss to Shane Mosley (SD), a very good fighter in his own right and the leading lightweight at the time. Shrouded in PED controversy. Neither loss takes away too much from Oscar's terrific run at 147lb. 2. Felix Trinidad Wins A: - B: DLH, Carr and Camacho C: Whitaker, Garcia and Pineda D: The remainder of his IBF defences Losses Trinidad was unbeaten in his time as welterweight titlist, largely due to his power, size, exceptional ability to cut fighters off and favourable judges. Regarded as one of the most dangerous punchers ever at welterweight. 3. Shane Mosley Wins A: DLH and Margarito B: - C: Collazo and Rivera D: Diaz, Taylor, Cano, Wise and co. Losses Losses have come against the best guys in the division, including the likes of Forrest and Cotto, his two most recent defeats have come as an almost shot fighter against Mayweather and Pacquiao. The Cotto fight was exceptionally close. 4. Manny Pacquiao Wins A: Cotto B: DLH and Clottey C: Rios and Marquez D: Mosley Losses The only true loss for Pacquiao at welterweight has come at the hands of long time rival Marquez, who stopped the Filipino in 6, exhilarating rounds. One of the best welterweight contests in recent years. The other loss should actually be in the "A" win column, with Bradley squeaking by in one of the most disgraceful judging decisions in recent memory. 5. Floyd Mayweather Wins A: - B: Hatton C: Judah, Marquez, Guerrero and Baldomir D: Mosley, Mitchell and Ortiz Losses There are none, which speaks volumes and tells us one of 2 things, either Mayweather is exceptionally skilled or he hasn't fought all the best names available. In fact, both conclusions are legitimate. Mayweather is indeed exceptional skilled but has has missed out on welterweight bouts with Margarito, Williams, Cotto and Pacquiao. 6. Lloyd Honeyghan Wins A: Curry B: Blocker and Bumphus C: Hatcher, Kil-Chung, Mittee and Vaca D: String of fights for Commonwealth, British and European titles Losses Losses to Marlon Starling and Jorce Vaca stand out but Honeyghan was suffering by this stage and no longer at his best for various reasons. To his credit, he only lost to the best in his division at the time. 7. Donald Curry Wins A: - B: McCrory and Starling 2x C: Diaz, Rocca and Stafford D: Number of opponents Losses Of course, there is the surprising loss to Lloyd Honeyghan and the subsequent decline. It is important to note that this was his only loss at the weight. 8. Vernon Forrest Wins A: Mosley 2x B: - C: Frank and Phillips D: Stone, Griffin amongst others Losses A brutal stoppage at the hands of Ricardo Mayorga derailed what could have been a great career at welterweight, sending Forrest 7lb north. 9. Antonio Margarito Wins A: Cotto B: Cintron and Clottey C: Diaz, Santos and Kyvelos D: Notable wins in this category are Martinez, Kamau and Randall Losses The biggest of defeats came against Shane Mosley, a terrific fighter with one last great performance left in him. Paul Williams is another conqueror, both fighters beating Margarito with speed and precision. 10. Miguel Cotto Wins A: Mosley B: Quintana, Judah and Clottey C: Urkal and Jennings D: Gomez Losses Margarito did a number on the Puerto Rican and I don't believe Cotto fully recovered from it. Having said that, there is the now infamous hand wrap scandal and it lessens the impact of the loss. Pacquiao finished off what was left of Cotto's impressive prime but there is no shame in losing to one of the best ever. Feel to discuss, post your own lists with some sort of criteria. Let's discuss one of the best divisions in the sports history as civilised boxing fans. I like this list, you've put a lot of thought into it and its pretty damn good imo, but no Marlon Starling? I would have put his body of work on a par with the likes of Marg or Cotto.

If you use the opponents position at time of fight-floyd's wins over Hatton, Zab, Shane and Baldo at 147 all far exceed where clotey or ODH were ranked at 147 when the fight occured. Its as if ODH is given credit for where he was at 147 before, not where he was at the time of the fight. ODH was favored against Manny but I don't know if any smart diehard fans had ODH beating him. He criticizes floyd for missing Margs, williams, cotto and Pac. Ok. Manny missed all the same guys at 147, with the exception of cotto at 145. Why is everything about Floyd and Manny. Did you just make this account to only argue about floyd and manny? Pac > Floyd's resume and it wont change before they retire. I personally think that its a well thought out list myself.

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win. YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd. Can you explain please? Of course, Margarito at the time was coming off of beating Cotto....no, annihilating him and making him take a knee. Margarito was the baddest man in the division at the time. Mosley battered him. That is an "A" win. Oscar beat Whitaker who at the time was undefeated at the weight, WBC champ and regarded as the best welterweight on the planet. Oscar beat him and although some say it was controversial, Oscar beat the best welterweight on the planet and caused Sweet Peas work rate to drop. Yes Whitaker made it difficult and the fight looked clumsy but some of those rights and lefts that Whitaker tasted in the early rounds made him decide he'd rather make it ugly than try to win. A win. Mayweather beat an almost shot to hell version of Mosley, if I had a Z ranking I'd place that win there. Clottey was one of the top 5 leading welterweights at the time who had given Cotto hell and a legitimate contender for Pacquiao. Not only did the Pacman win, he won a complete shutout, the gulf between the two was vast. The Oscar win is a "B" because the general consensus amongst fans, journalists and fighters was that Oscar would destroy Pacquiao, too big, too strong etc. Pacquiao knocked Oscar into retirement. Baldomir is quite possibly the worst welterweight champion ever, who caught Judah going through one of his "phases". Mayweather won and yes he won the so called lineal title but he did not look impressive at all, other great welterweights of the past would have battered Baldomir into oblivion. The Judah win is not an A because he had lost to Baldomir and because Mayweather struggled against him for 5 rounds, looking mediocre at best in those rounds. Yes he stepped it up but the performance was not exactly a classic, jaw dropping crowning of a great champion. Hatton was moving up in weight and again, Mayweather was given hell for 10 rounds, especially the first 5 or 6, before the referee and Mayweather's conditioning kicked in.

I'm confused by your rankings. You have SHane beating Margs as an A win. You have ODH over sweet pea as an A win.Then you have floyd beating Shane as a D win. YOu have Manny's wins over clottey and ODH as B wins, and you rank those equal to Hatton and above Zab and Baldomir for floyd. Can you explain please? He already explained it to you :lol1: So the first thing I did was divide their opponents faced into four categories: A, B, C and D. An "A" opponent is a terrific win, taking into account the opponent's position at the time of the fight, who was the favourite and the manner of victory. I then looked at the overall skill level of the fighter, how good he was the weight, taking into account the physical basics: skill, power, punch resistance and stamina. Outside of the physical attributes and possibly more important is the skill level, ring IQ, ability to adapt to different styles and style. Losses were also taken into account, the manner of those losses and any controversial wins.

So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie I have no bearing on his religion and I'm not sure about you but I have met Naazim on multiple occasions, he has been a gentlemen each time but money, the spotlight and ones need to tell the story can make liars of all of us. I've probably told some of my grand kids some wild stories, based on truth but changed over time. Remember this is the same Naazim Richardson who claimed that Felix Trinidad had something extra in his wraps, but it turned out that Trinidad's father who I believe was doing the wrapping at the time, simply put on too much tape. It was a nothing that turned into a something. As I've already mentioned, Margarito did something wrong for the Mosley fight, there is no denying it but I iwll not fall into the hearsay. I'm going with the official reports that claim "trace substances were found". Nothing more, nothing less.

I will ask the same question again. Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag? There was a photo of it a while back and it was the piece of gauze that they put over the knuckles. It looked a little sus but it sure wasnt a block lol.

Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag? ts is correct, that piece of gauze has suddenly been exaggerated into a brick. Saying someone exaggerates isnt calling someone one a liar. So give an unexaggerated version of "a block fell out"

Did you actually see the gauze in the evidence bag? ts is correct, that piece of gauze has suddenly been exaggerated into a brick. Saying someone exaggerates isnt calling someone one a liar.

Naazim Richardson was the trainer I believe? He exaggerated, a block or anything of that sort did not fall out. What was evidenced, as is shown in the case files, was that the gauge used to wrap Margarito's hands contained very minimal traces of substances that may be used in plaster and that the gauge was harder than normal. I'm not saying Margarito is innocent but the story has become convoluted. So now you are calling a devout religious man a liar Besides, he said it in the build up to Mosley mayweather fight. Why would he lie