A lot of people give Pacquiao criticism for his catchweights in the welterweight division, but I honestly feel that this is only because we've put him on such a pedestal. We fight fans have given Manny a Superman-like status against any welterweight that isn't Floyd Mayweather. That's the Pacquiao we all know now, the one that's been comfortably fighting at 147 for several years. We don't remember that Pacquiao, when fighting those catchweights, was still the David against the Goliaths of the welterweight division.
To put things into perspective, I want to give you a list of weight classes and how long Manny Pacquiao spent in them.
Flyweight 108-112 - 4 years
Bantamweight 118-122 - 4 years
Featherweight 126-130 - 5 years
~
Lightweight 135 - One fight
Welterweight 147 - One fight
Light Welterweight 140 -
Welterweight 145 -
Welterweight 147 - *
Light Middleweight 150 - **
~
Welterweight 147 - 2011
Welterweight 144 - 2011***
Welterweight 147 - 2012
Welterweight 147 - 2012
* Clottey weighed ~165, while Pacquiao weighed 150~ on fight night.
** Margarito weighed 168, while Pacquiao weighed 151 on fight night.
*** Pacquiao fought Marquez at a catchweight of 144.
~ This entire segment occurred in two years.
My point is that Pacquiao skipped an entire lightweight division and jumped headfirst into the welterweight division. While we all complain of him draining fighters now, we fail to realize that he was still growing into the division and was a very small fighter at the time. The reasons for catchweights were legitimate. While Pacquiao had 3-5 years to develop into his other weight classes, he jumped two of them in two fights, then proceeded to battle welterweight and light middleweight giants.
It was only after Pacquiao blazed through the division, that we've found flaws and say that these fighters were drained. Realistically at the time these fights were made, it was reasonable to say that these catchweights leveled the playing field enough for these classic fights to have been made. When you remember that Clottey, De La Hoya, and Margarito fought a fighter fresh out of featherweight and outweighed him by 15-18 lbs, you have to give credit where it's due.
Lastly, I've seen many people complain that Pacquiao forced Marquez up in weight. You need to remember that Mayweather did the same thing, setting the fight at 147 and coming in overweight. Pacquiao did fight at a 144lb catchweight and came in weighing even less than Marquez on fight night. Pacquiao and Marquez are in reality, much closer in weight than many would think.
I just feel that Pacquiao's achievements have lost their luster recently due to allegations of catchweights. I feel like it's only right to shed a little bit of perspective onto the subject. I don't expect to change any minds.
TL;DR: Pacquiao had 3-5 years to adjust to weights from flyweight up to featherweight. His jump from 130 to 135 to 147 was a matter of one year. He then jumped to 154 in the next year. It's not ridiculous to say that the catchweights had some genuine legitimacy.
I don't know, C. I thought both he and Bradley looked mediocre. Bradley was very sloppy and Manny was so flat-footed--not to mention his punch output decreased considerably. What did impress me about his performance was that he showed some veteran craftiness I'm not used to seeing from him; probably because he usually overwhelms foes.
As for Marquez IV...he looked great offensively but defensively...horrible.
Actually, I found Pacquiao to look the worst in Bradley, defensively. He had little to no head movement and was being caught on his way out far more than even in Marquez III. He simply looked lazy.
In IV, he actually looked more sound defensively, slipping and weaving after every combination. I think that was what confused Marquez the most and allowed Manny to land several flush shots in the 5th.
At this point, it is hardly about weight, but more on (probably) conditioning.
I thought he looked good against Bradley and looked as good as he has in years in Marquez IV until the boom. That may have been a last gasp.
I don't know, C. I thought both he and Bradley looked mediocre. Bradley was very sloppy and Manny was so flat-footed--not to mention his punch output decreased considerably. What did impress me about his performance was that he showed some veteran craftiness I'm not used to seeing from him; probably because he usually overwhelms foes.
As for Marquez IV...he looked great offensively but defensively...horrible.
Yeah - his age and regression is why I'm not sure he comes back so easy. He hasn't looked good in a long time.
I thought he looked good against Bradley and looked as good as he has in years in Marquez IV until the boom. That may have been a last gasp.
Fighters have been knocked out as bad and come back. I think he'll shake it off easier than most think. The commitment issue could be a big one. I use the Duran comparison because Duran was streaky after Leonard II and Hearns. It's about the right foe for a moment more than another sustained run.
Could just as easy go the Roy route and just be over. He ain't young.
Yeah - his age and regression is why I'm not sure he comes back so easy. He hasn't looked good in a long time.
Yeah. I think that may be difficult though because I'm not sure mentally, that he's still capable of maintaining that hunger, giving 100% and not suffering irreparable psychological damage from the KO loss.
Fighters have been knocked out as bad and come back. I think he'll shake it off easier than most think. The commitment issue could be a big one. I use the Duran comparison because Duran was streaky after Leonard II and Hearns. It's about the right foe for a moment more than another sustained run.
Could just as easy go the Roy route and just be over. He ain't young.
Ironically, he looked better in the ring this year than he did last year. 0-2.
He may have a Duran-Barkley or Moore moment left but the times are a changing.
Yeah. I think that may be difficult though because I'm not sure mentally, that he's still capable of maintaining that hunger, giving 100% and not suffering irreparable psychological damage from the KO loss.
The Dark Ages of the Pacquiao era.
Ironically, he looked better in the ring this year than he did last year. 0-2.
He may have a Duran-Barkley or Moore moment left but the times are a changing.
Clottey was the best available Welter after Floyd in the moment so it didn't take away either, and he won going away over a guy who had proven tough on every other top Welter he'd seen. I get your point though. The low point to me was Mosley. Grotesque fight, and the way he carried him (IMO) was worse.
The Dark Ages of the Pacquiao era.
If you cant understand this...find another sport!
Manny is coming up in weight vs Cotto is staying in shape to Make the 147 limit.
Meaning...Cotto can easily go up over the 147 mark...Manny cannot. Hes just moving up in weight. You should at least get that. But i will help you more!
08 Manny vs JMM 130lbs - 08 Cotto vs Gomez 146½lbs
08 Manny vs Diaz 135lbs - 08 Cott0 vs Marg 147lbs
08 Manny vs DLH cw145 - Mannys first time at 145 10lbs heavier than his last fight 15lbs heavier in his last 5 years.... Making sure DLH WOULDNT blow up from 147 mark in short time on fight night make sure that they meet in the WW limit of 141-147...more than middle...go with 145. Manny goes up DLH comes down...In ignorance theory...some think you have to make 147...You have to be within the limit of 141-147...not exceeding 147! Fact!!! lets get to cotto...
09 Manny VS Hatton 140lbs - 09 Cotto vs Jennings 146½
(Manny didnt care for 10 extra lbs and wanted to fight at 140 as did with Hatton)
09 Manny waits outcome.....09 Cotto vs Clottey 146lbs
then the big weight drain showdown where Manny drained cotto a whole 1 f*cking lb!!!
09 Manny vs Cotto cw 145
as agreed with no stress or fuss from Team Cotto! i mean hes been weighing in at 146 or a tad bit over. despite still nearly reaching 150lbs ob fight night while Manny whos second time 10lbs over his fairly new weight of 135 is coming up in weight ...how dare them ask for a pound or two.!!!!!!! GTFO!!!
Now if anyone cant understand or get this...you are a dumb ass! plain and simple.
Its not that he cant, its more that he refuses to understand.
I say squat because Joshua Clottey doesn't enhance his resume. Neither did beating Margarito. Wasn't impressed by either win. At all.
Clottey was the best available Welter after Floyd in the moment so it didn't take away either, and he won going away over a guy who had proven tough on every other top Welter he'd seen. I get your point though. The low point to me was Mosley. Grotesque fight, and the way he carried him (IMO) was worse.
I see a lot of these kind of posts on here. Its amusing that you people seem to think that only one or two people can possibly think that you are bumsniffing fanboys.:nonono:
***Yawns***
It wasn't 'squat.' Clottey was a top contender. He deserved the Bradley win, and that was a high quality foe. Margarito was a bad event but a tougher fight in the ring than most give credit for (because it sucked that it got made). It wasn't what it could have been and was less than it was being made out to be. It wasn't nothing though. Someone with lesser expectations wouldn't have taken much crit.
In the end it all comes back to Floyd. Had his team taken the March 2010 fight and not killed it (and I still say it was the Pac side, more so because Arum WANTED that Cowboys show), win or lose, he'd get more credit in the long run because that was THE fight he needed to seal his run and that was the time when he had the best chance to win it.
Still, his run from Ledwaba to Cotto was one of the best I've ever seen and one of the best we're going to see for the forseeable future. Epic stuff. That it could have been even more than that is what sucks. I want to see someone who is clearly one of the greats in this time reach as far as they can without blinking. Haven't really seen that since Duran; maybe Whitaker. Tito Trinidad reached pretty damn hard too. It's rare.
Instead the guys who seem to reach farthest are guys like Corrales and Froch and Darchinyan. Maybe that's why I love them more in the ring.
I say squat because Joshua Clottey doesn't enhance his resume. Neither did beating Margarito. Wasn't impressed by either win. At all.
I wish alt busters were still around because its clear this "Junior Gong" guy was a former spamming troll who tried to come back as a serious poster. You're not fooling anyone.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lriz6lHZt61qk3nq2o1_500.gif
He's already outed himself. Couldn't keep it together for too long. Can't pretend to be a serious poster when you don't know how to be one in the first place.I see a lot of these kind of posts on here. Its amusing that you people seem to think that only one or two people can possibly think that you are bumsniffing fanboys.:nonono:
On another note...The people that classify themselves a 'serious poster' haha, are generally total arseholes who spend too much time on forums and take themselves too seriously and almost always have an agenda based on teenage style fanaticism over one fighter(Burner, yesir etc.) or even worse, a race based agenda, i.e IM(an african, sir)DAZED. Sad little men.:nonono:
The Margarito fight...Good Lord. I don't like to use the word cherry pick but...man, it suits that fight so perfectly. A fighter coming off a mediocre performance, preceded by a year long suspension which came after a complete ass whipping defeat. At a catchweight for a made up title. How people defended that fight was beyond me.
Anyway, I still give Manny credit for the Cotto win. Hella impressive. But you're right, he had a chance to do more but ended up doing squat afterward.
It wasn't 'squat.' Clottey was a top contender. He deserved the Bradley win, and that was a high quality foe. Margarito was a bad event but a tougher fight in the ring than most give credit for (because it sucked that it got made). It wasn't what it could have been and was less than it was being made out to be. It wasn't nothing though. Someone with lesser expectations wouldn't have taken much crit.
In the end it all comes back to Floyd. Had his team taken the March 2010 fight and not killed it (and I still say it was the Pac side, more so because Arum WANTED that Cowboys show), win or lose, he'd get more credit in the long run because that was THE fight he needed to seal his run and that was the time when he had the best chance to win it.
Still, his run from Ledwaba to Cotto was one of the best I've ever seen and one of the best we're going to see for the forseeable future. Epic stuff. That it could have been even more than that is what sucks. I want to see someone who is clearly one of the greats in this time reach as far as they can without blinking. Haven't really seen that since Duran; maybe Whitaker. Tito Trinidad reached pretty damn hard too. It's rare.
Instead the guys who seem to reach farthest are guys like Corrales and Froch and Darchinyan. Maybe that's why I love them more in the ring.
Yup. But since almost no one seemed to think it changed the fight outcome, it makes it a sort of hollow point.
So Pac liked to play head games with opponents.
It's not a favorable trait but it's nothing unusual from guys who have the stroke to do it.
He wouldve most likely won either way but he asked for the CW for a reason. Thats all I tell people.
I wish alt busters were still around because its clear this "Junior Gong" guy was a former spamming troll who tried to come back as a serious poster. You're not fooling anyone.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lriz6lHZt61qk3nq2o1_500.gif
He's already outed himself. Couldn't keep it together for too long. Can't pretend to be a serious poster when you don't know how to be one in the first place.
Exactly Cliff.
It was a strategic move to help them gain an advantage.
Yup. But since almost no one seemed to think it changed the fight outcome, it makes it a sort of hollow point.
So Pac liked to play head games with opponents.
It's not a favorable trait but it's nothing unusual from guys who have the stroke to do it.
I agree, but the reasons are pretty simple for the guy you're quoting: make the guy think about the extra pounds and limit the amount of weight Cotto can put on after the weigh-in. Ultimately it was one pound less than his previous fight with a day and change to rehydrate. Catchweights are much less dangerous in this era than in fights where they went in the ring the same day. I criticized Manny for doing it against Cotto because I thought he might have a shot at a real Armstrong-esque close to his career. He was already a Hall of Famer before 2008-09. They (he and his team) took their foot off the pedal just enough to stop him short from trying (not saying he succeeds).
That said, even Armstrong was carefully matched as Welterweight champ. He fought Garcia and Montanez but he also brought Arizmendi back to finish a rivalry started at Feather and didn't defend against natural Welter top contenders of high skill like Cocoa Kid, Williams, and Burley. Not much market demand for those fights obviously a factor as well.
The Oscar thing was all Oscar. Oscar was trying to take a big money fight that was seen as lower risk. Roach and Manny took what turned out to be a sucker bet. That fight is critic proof to me in the taking.
In general, the catchweight thing is way overblown in general. He didn't force one on a Clottey who had arguably just beat Clottey. Margarito...didn't appear to affect the outcome but considering how rocked he was to the body in the fifth one can see why they wanted it. He GAVE pounds to Marquez for their third. Of his five best wins, one was a catch fight (Cotto). DLH would be in his top ten because of the magnitude in making him a megastar. Relative to how many catchweight fights we've seen historically, it's a hollow critique.
The Margarito fight...Good Lord. I don't like to use the word cherry pick but...man, it suits that fight so perfectly. A fighter coming off a mediocre performance, preceded by a year long suspension which came after a complete ass whipping defeat. At a catchweight for a made up title. How people defended that fight was beyond me.
Anyway, I still give Manny credit for the Cotto win. Hella impressive. But you're right, he had a chance to do more but ended up doing squat afterward.