Ray Leonard says to overcome Mayweather shoulder roll, hit the shoulder..you agree?

Smashing up his shoulder might be as good a tactic as any, but variation is the key in my opinion. With Floyd, I think you can get to him early on in fights but he adjusts so well as it progresses.

the problem with this is that, as you're hitting that shoulder, you become a sitting duck for the quickest counters in the game. First thing I thought too.:boxing:

My point is that you're overrating the effectiveness of Cotto's roughhouse tactics when they didn't even work. He won no more than 4 rounds and that wasn't even down to him being rough it was down to him having good timing with his jab. He used his jab effectively too. But that's not the one single factor that won him those rounds. Round 8 was his best round and he was swarming him. Round 6 was also a good round for him that took place more in the center of the ring. Again. There's a lot of things he did good well that fight.

Feinting and jabbing is the key to beating the shoulder roll. Yep, it's all about the feints especially. Nobody seems to try and lure Floyd into anything. They just go punch-crazy and start throwing shots at his head. Think of it like a video game. If there was a boss at the end of some level who did the shoulder roll, and hooks/overhand punches didn't work, would you keep on throwing them over and over? No. But that's what fighters seem to keep doing against Floyd Mayweather, when they should be finding some unorthodox way of getting through his defenses. We've seen the jab work more than any other shot against Floyd. Oscar landed his often, as did Cotto. Miguel Cotto caught Floyd with like three jabs in a row. Three SLOW jabs at the end of a round. So the jab works. If you use feints, you disrupt his shoulder roll, because he rolls the "ghost" punch and then rolls back into the "real" punch. Also, you'd have to do a little bit of acting and pretend he caught you with a good shot. Floyd always opens his chin straight into the air when he's got an opponent hurt. Just look at the Ortiz "knockout." He's wide open for a counter there, but Ortiz is too busy getting hit to notice. Feints, a jab and mental chess. And if you throw a right hand, jab to the body and go over the top with it, a la Shane Mosley. Also see Hearns / Duran.

Good points. That said out of 36 rounds in total in the worst case floyd won 23 of 36 (5-7 castillo 1, 10-2 castillo 2 and 8-4 cotto) and in the best case he won 28 of 36 (8-4 castillo 1, 11-1 castillo 2 and 9-3 cotto). SO i don't know how effective they were, respectfully! Well I thought Castillo won the first fight but Mayweather adjusted in the second fight obviously. Cotto lost 8 rounds at least but I think the jab from a right handed stance inside really gave Mayweather problems at times. Now we are talking about one of the best fighters of all time in Mayweather and there are plenty of fighter who try and fight like him that can't pull it off. That's why styles don't beat fighters, fighters beat fighters if that makes any sense. Of course styles play a big part but there isn't this set of rules as to what style beats what even though a lot of fans think that.

The thing about Floyd is that: you hurt your hands more than you hurt his shoulder and elbow defense. You'll have broken knuckles and wrists if you try to go at that all day. I know for a fact, I've injured my knuckles throwing at an elbow. The dude's like a snapping turtle in a shell, man.

I disagree with Leonard's assertion because that strategy has already been proven futile against Mayweather's shoulder roll in his fight with De La Hoya. As I can recall, Oscar landed multiple punches upon Mayweather's shoulders and arms; In order to get him out of that Philly shell defense and yet he was still unsuccessful in landing clean shots against him. I believe for an orthodox fighter, aiming at the top of the opponent's head, with looping overhand rights, when a fighter is in that particular posture, is a much better strategy to implement. Since the chin is tucked, it leaves the top of the head exposed and in the process, making it the most vulnerable spot on the body to land punches.

Learn from the body snatcher Mike McCallum, "Kill the body and the head dies.":boxing:

Worked out very well because he won arguably 4 rounds. When is the last time he lost more than 3? What's your point? You think I'm implying that Cotto has the secret gameplan to defeat Floyd? Lol...He did some good things in that fight and I'm just mentioning some of those things I observed. My point is that you're overrating the effectiveness of Cotto's roughhouse tactics when they didn't even work. He won no more than 4 rounds and that wasn't even down to him being rough it was down to him having good timing with his jab.

How did things work out for Cotto? He won no more than 4 rounds. Worked out very well because he won arguably 4 rounds. When is the last time he lost more than 3? What's your point? You think I'm implying that Cotto has the secret gameplan to defeat Floyd? Lol...He did some good things in that fight and I'm just mentioning some of those things I observed.

Dumb Tactic is Dumb....Punching at Floyd's shoulders would be like GIVING him free Defense and KILLING your percentages. Also you could run the risk of jamming your wrist on a stiff shoulder. Also punching at his shoulder would open you up for counters, because Floyd is so smart he'd notice your "Punch the Shoulders" tactic and he'll bait you with a shoulder feint then crack your ass in the mouth. Posted from Boxingscene.com App for Android

I think he would need to right hook to turn Floyd to the side and make him off balance to stop the counter from coming. I still feel body work is the best way to counter it. I agree. See, Floyd is a highly reactive fighter, he is going to block first and then attack. If you can force him into rolling the left shoulder by feinting a right, his left oblique and kidney will be exposed for a right hook to the body. Floyd won't lower the left elbow because he would rather take the body punches than the right to the face. If you think about it, hitting him in the shoulder would be pretty effective as well because it is always tensed up because of the way he keeps his elbow up to protect his face when rolling a punch. This is important because it means that he can't hit you with the jab and the muscle is just a sitting target. You keep tagging that shoulder, it might not stop his defense but it'll stop his jab after a few rounds.

That and also do what Cotto did and push his elbow up and shove him against the ropes. There was one round where Floyd tried to be slick with the elbow and Cotto lifted him off the ground and almost body slammed him. Rough house tactics in general I think are the way to deal with him. Exactly. But you also need a certain kind of fighter to pull that off. Someone with a solid body and a solid punch. Don't let him sit and control the fight, they have to bring the fight to him all night long. Forget some of the rules and make it a nasty fight, push him with the body arms or even elbows. In the inside do what El Perro does and just let your hands go, even if the ref says to stop. The only one's that can kind of box him at this stage is Trout because of his size and Martinez because of his speed and size as well. The rest should just go balls to the walls

That and also do what Cotto did and push his elbow up and shove him against the ropes. There was one round where Floyd tried to be slick with the elbow and Cotto lifted him off the ground and almost body slammed him. Rough house tactics in general I think are the way to deal with him. How did things work out for Cotto? He won no more than 4 rounds.

Pull a Cotto and hit him in the balls repeatedly. That's how you overcome his defense. He be so worried about getting hit in the balls that he would go all defense mode on his balls and forget to put his arms up. Now that's a masterful plan. No need to thank me its what I do That and also do what Cotto did and push his elbow up and shove him against the ropes. There was one round where Floyd tried to be slick with the elbow and Cotto lifted him off the ground and almost body slammed him. Rough house tactics in general I think are the way to deal with him.

Pull a Cotto and hit him in the balls repeatedly. That's how you overcome his defense. He be so worried about getting hit in the balls that he would go all defense mode on his balls and forget to put his arms up. Now that's a masterful plan. No need to thank me its what I do

All that is cool. But who has Leonard fought that is anywhere near as good when it comes to speed, defense, accuracy, and intelligence all wrapped up in one. I understand that most people always say the best guy in the past is better than the best guy today. I'm just saying that might not be the case. If Leonard was to come out the first 3 rounds and focus on the shoulder, he'll be down 3 rounds and on his way to a loss. U can't do that when the other guy is scoring with clean shots. Punching the shoulder should have nothing to do with the gameplan. He gets hit in the shoulder every fight lol. In my opinion u have to take the lead on Floyd and make him feel like he has to come win the fight. Then u outbox him. Floyds advantage over anybody he could fight is defense. Noone's offense looks the same against him as it did everyone else. Take that way by making him be the aggressor and make him come forward. Only thing is, u have to be defensive and a counter puncher yourself. It will take a superior boxer to beat him. No one around today can do that. Maybe SRL could, maybe he couldnt. This thread's discussion is just about one comment that was stated that SRL would use as part of his overall game plan but if you know SRL, you would know that he would be doing much more than just "hitting the shoulder". By the way, SRL knows how to win rounds. Ask Hagler, Hearns, .... how he can look impressive enough to steal some close rounds. I can see in the first few rounds, SRL deploy his "hitting the shoulder" plan then have a couple of flurries during the round to make him win the round. Being behind, then Floyd would need to open up and that is when it would get really interesting. SRL has a much better resume compared to Floyd. That plus his size advantage and his talent, speed, movement, all around athleticism and experience makes me think that SRL would give Floyd trouble that Floyd has never experienced before. Floyd would give SRL something to think about as well but if SRL would have actually figured out how to penetrate Floyd's defense then it would be a long night for Floyd.

You got to hit what you can..I'd say the elbow and chest personally, but I see advantage in the shoulder as well.. I see so many fighters come at floyd hard early, and then just stand there confused for over half the fight. You have to outwork floyd by a large margin to beat him. For every clean punch he lands on you, you have land 5 glancing blows. Head on the chest and hooks to the body, and looping overhands to the temple if he pushes you back.

That would be the key .... getting Floyd to say sign on the dotted line ..... lol! SRL would have used more than one punch (plan) to attack and beat Floyd. Possibly what SRL meant is the opponent should also hit what is available. Some fighters would try to hit Floyd's head even though it was hard to do when using the shoulder roll. Those who are taller and have a longer reach than Floyd would have had a better chance at going over the shoulder roll. Perhaps SRL would have done that being that he is taller and has the reach advantage. I can see SRL zeroing in on that shoulder and hitting it hard to the point that Floyd would be reluctant to stay in that position all night long. SRL had the reach, speed, movement and athleticism that most who fought Floyd never did. It would be hard for Floyd to counter effectively when using the shoulder roll against SRL if all SRL did the first few rounds was punch Floyd's shoulder. Again, SRL would have deployed various attacks that would have caused problems for Floyd. You can't just think that the fight would be just about punching the shoulder. All that is cool. But who has Leonard fought that is anywhere near as good when it comes to speed, defense, accuracy, and intelligence all wrapped up in one. I understand that most people always say the best guy in the past is better than the best guy today. I'm just saying that might not be the case. If Leonard was to come out the first 3 rounds and focus on the shoulder, he'll be down 3 rounds and on his way to a loss. U can't do that when the other guy is scoring with clean shots. Punching the shoulder should have nothing to do with the gameplan. He gets hit in the shoulder every fight lol. In my opinion u have to take the lead on Floyd and make him feel like he has to come win the fight. Then u outbox him. Floyds advantage over anybody he could fight is defense. Noone's offense looks the same against him as it did everyone else. Take that way by making him be the aggressor and make him come forward. Only thing is, u have to be defensive and a counter puncher yourself. It will take a superior boxer to beat him. No one around today can do that. Maybe SRL could, maybe he couldnt.

SRL only has a 2 in reach advantage. If you think srl beats him fine. But please, don't posts silly **** like reach advantage when you clearly had no idea what is was for each fighter. SRl's plan makes sense, but unless you have a Hearns like reach advantage you'd be silly, no matter how great you are, to fight like that vs floyd becaused floyd's reach (coupled with his speed)is extremely long for someone his size. When Floyd uses his shoulder roll stance, it makes him less effective against a fighter that stays on the outside and needs to hit Floyd's shoulder. What I'm saying is for that tactic, taking into consideration that all SRL is doing is hitting Floyd's shoulder, SRL can easily remain on the outside. Now take into account that he has a reach/height advantage and hass very good speed and movement, it would make it harder for Floyd to do anything effective during that exchange. Floyd would have to open up and "reach" to do anything noteworthy but that would be "advantage SRL" because that would make Floyd more vulnerable. Finally, what makes the shoulder roll work for Floyd is that he usually can counter an opponent that is reaching in and "missing" his target (ie. Floyd's head). Hitting the shoulder is SRL saying, I will be patient and hit what I can get until Floyd hurts his shoulder and opens up or changes his stance. Remember, Floyd's shoulder is much closer to SRL to hit that Floyd's head that is way behind his shoulder while in that stance. Therefore, SRL does not require a Hearns like reach. He just needs a slight advantage against a Floyd that is not in a "offense first" position.