People Need To Stop Saying That Freddie Roach Is A Great Trainer

Roach is overrated.... He is, all that constant bouncing around his fighters do is annoying as well. I don't see how he helped Khan either, all he did was tell him to keep his hands up, that's all I've seen. And as Bringer said, Ariza deserves half the credit.

Roach is overrated....

saturdays fight tells me alot about freddie roach as a trainer that guys technique was CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, freddie is a good trainer tho but overrated I totally agree. He was extremely sloppy and did a terrible job of trying to cut off the ring. Tarver boxed circles around him and I still can't believe that the fight was ruled a draw. People can try to blame that on Kayode but the reality it that it's the same situation or a very similar one with all of Freddie Roach's fighters. None of them can adjust and they all look to have poor ring IQ's. Amir Khan is also very sloppy and Manny Pacquiao is extremely sloppy, even in the fights that he dominates. He's only winning because he has been fighting flat-footed washed up opponents with very little energy who can't move. We saw what happened when he faced a smart boxer who can move in Marquez. He got exposed.

In reply to JK, you sayUncle Rog is a great trainer yet base it on what he has only done with Floyd, and that is fine? Well firstly Senior gave Floyd that style if you go and watch Floyd Senior fight comapfed to Roger, or check Floyd out as an amateur. Also since Senior came back to his life he told Junior to use his Jab, and Floyd has done to the body more. But anyway, I disagree that Roger is great and Roach is not. Floyd is usually in his comfort zone because he is mentally, intellectually, and more importantly physically better than pretty much anyone out there. What he has taught Floyd, not many can do at all. No one has Floyd's reactions and eyes, hardly anyone has his speed, or even his range for his height. Yes he has excellent defines but he can get away with it because he has speed in reaction and movement too. So the similarities with PAC is there, pretty much PAC can only do what he did was be use he had an excellent engine with power and speed. When Floyd was deep in a fight, Castillo 1 where IMO he lost, Roger gave absolutely the Wrong advice. That was one of few fights where floyd was struggling to a point he didn't adjust. Now Roger has learned from that mistake, but Floyd still has a tendency to make mistakes such as staying on the ropes Vs cotto. Sorry but even in Floyd's words, it's not co to get hit. His motto is hit and not get hit, and he ended up bleeding. If Roger is a great trainer than so is Roach. Floyd Sr got his son started but to claim that he singlehandedly made him into the fighter he is today is just wrong. Roger, having trained him for the last 12 years has developed him and improved him a lot during that time. Granted, Floyd has always been so far ahead of the competition that it's hard to see where he has improved, but he has. For example in the lower weight divisions he hardly ever threw body punches and he does that very well now. He also now knows how to fight very effectively against the ropes and toe-to-toe which we never really saw him do when his dad was training him. Under Roger he has become such a versatile and dominant boxer that he has to fight people above his weight division just to get challenged. And I disagree with your opinion about the first Castillo fight. Roger was telling him he had to go out and fight the last few rounds which made the difference on my card. Up until the last 3 or 4 rounds the fight was pretty much even then he pulled away. The Cotto fight wasn't even remotely close. Yes Floyd spent some time on the ropes but the vast majority of Miguel's punches weren't landing while Floyd was hitting him at will. Roger is a great trainer because he has taught his fighter how to use different styles and still be very effective. Roach doesn't have that with any of his fighters. They all fight the same and all of them have very limited defence. I give the guy credit for doing what he does with parkinsons syndrome but I can't ignore the fact that the people who he trains have lots of flaws. Like I said before, A great trainer should be able to teach good defence and he should also be able to develop a style for his fighters that is best for them and their attributes (Jorge Linares for example) instead of basically saying "Well, Manny Pacquiao is my most successful fighter so i'll just tell all of my guys to fight exactly like him". It doesn't work like that and he should know better. Roach gets way too much credit as a trainer when at least half of that credit should be going to Alex Ariza, who, in my opinion, is the best strength and conditioning coach in the sport today. A lot of the success Roach's fighters are having has to do more with their conditioning than their actual abilities. Look at guys like Khan and Pacquiao, who have stamina for days and fight as hard in the 12th as they do in the 1st - Yet they can't grasp boxing basics like fighting on the inside, or defending in the pocket. Pitiful. Another thing I take issue with is the "I've trained 30-something World Champions" claim Roach used to make all the time - Yeah, if you count guys who were already Champs long before you jumped in their corner, and they just took you on for a fight or two. Guys like Tyson, De La Hoya, Hopkins, Toney, etc.... It's not like you're Ignacio Beristain, who's taken the majority of his lot from poverty to World Titles over and over and over again. Excellent, excellent points. I completely agree.

Another thing I take issue with is the "I've trained 30-something World Champions" claim Roach used to make all the time - Yeah, if you count guys who were already Champs long before you jumped in their corner, and they just took you on for a fight or two. Guys like Tyson, De La Hoya, Hopkins, Toney, etc.... It's not like you're Ignacio Beristain, who's taken the majority of his lot from poverty to World Titles over and over and over again.

Roach gets way too much credit as a trainer when at least half of that credit should be going to Alex Ariza, who, in my opinion, is the best strength and conditioning coach in the sport today. A lot of the success Roach's fighters are having has to do more with their conditioning than their actual abilities. Look at guys like Khan and Pacquiao, who have stamina for days and fight as hard in the 12th as they do in the 1st - Yet they can't grasp boxing basics like fighting on the inside, or defending in the pocket. Pitiful.

Facts are facts, freddie roach's fighters cannot make in fight adjustments. He is a great trainer and gameplanner, he is not even close to elite on fight night. Name one time his fighter made an adjustment and won a fight. His fighters start strong and fade when the other corner adjust.

Your post is so stupid I don't even know where to start. Full of biased, I thought this was a serious thread. Either come at me with an intelligent point or don't bother posting in my threads. **NEWS FLASH** ... Lateef Kayode sucks. Why the OP puts all the blame Roach is beyond me. You have to remember, despite how old and washed up Tarver is, Vegas still put Kayode as a 3.5/1 underdog. That's about the same odds as Bradley against Pacquiao. Roach's instructions to Kayode during the middle rounds was to keep circling and stay off the ropes. There was about a 4 to 5 round stretch where Tarver stunned Kayode in every one of those rounds. What would you have Kayode do? Mix it up? Tarver would have probably stopped him had Kayode stopped running. Roach knew his man banked a lot of early rounds, and his only chance at winning was to go the distance. You also have to remember, before Roach, Pacquiao was known as a one-dimensional fighter. He was nothing more than a raw talent with a hell of a left hand. Look at his progression simply from watching all 3 Morales' fights. Who would you credit for that? To say that Roach is a **** trainer is ridiculous and far from the truth. I'm not putting all the blame on Roach. I'm simply stating that in my opinion he's not a great trainer and it showed again last night because we saw another one of his fighters who is supposed to be a great prospect, get exposed in a fight where he was supposed to look impressive. I'm not questioning the strategy that Roach had him use either. All im saying is that if your a great trainer then why can't you even teach your fighters the basics of boxing like good defence and being able to fight going backwards? It's not just Lateef Kayode. All of his fighters have the same problems. They're sloppy, have no defence and can't adjust. As far as the second part of your post. Manny Pacquiao is still a one-dimensional fighter. What do I credit for his performances in the 3 Morales fights? I credit the fact that Morales had just been dominated by Zahir Raheem, losing every single round, in the fight prior at 135. He was a washed up and ruined fighter, mentally and physically, and he had to go down even further down in weight to 130 for the second and third fights with Manny. Those wins are highly overrated and we saw in the 3rd Marquez fight that Manny hasn't improved. Call me a hater if you want, but this is the truth. Nobody is calling him a bad trainer or even an average trainer. He's a good trainer and I give him credit for doing what he's doing in the condition that he's in, I just think that his abilities are exaggerated. He's not a great trainer. If he was, his fighters would have good defence and know how to adjust. Roger Mayweather. Trains plenty of guys. Had some decent fighters in the past but has the best in the world. I have seen him give bad advice. Floyd trains himself now. If Roger was so good then floyd wouldn't be on the ropes at all vs cotto. Tbh I don't even remember who Roger trained that was world class other than floyd but I dot come from the Us to see. You tell me. Plus Senior trained Floyd his style which you can see from the amateurs. Emmanuel steward. He has had some great fighters. Two of the best heavies in his era but if Wlad and Lewis were 6 foot 2 and 220 lbs his style would not work. He allowed Lewis to get fat and ktfo by Rahman and has done well with wlad who picks his opponents. Prince Nadeem, let Barrera beat him as well as Taylor getting owned by pavlik. Vera owned his Irish fighter too. Steward was unwilling to leave kronk gym for someone recently and their relationship split up. Brother Nadeem? Please, he is great on rules and pre fight talks, but marg was tailor made for mosely, mosely kept saying Mexican style is for him. He then let mosely have a year lay off Berto or not and look at mosely now? For Hopkins pascal was perfect because he is a 4 rounder. Dawson showed Hopkins how to win rounds. I always said this, Hopkins does not deal with guys who have speed. Great? Hmmm, letting your man lose 12 rounders. Nacho trains a few guys, jam does good vs PAC for sure but he targets PAC as a career. He has tune ups and has called PAC out all the time as he moves up... Quite a few names left him like r Marquez and arcs etc.. If roach is not great then neither are those above. The idea that Floyd trains himself is a cop-out and a myth. Roger has been instrumental in moulding Floyd into the fighter that he is today and without him he wouldn't be anywhere near as good as he is, especially on the offensive side. It doesn't matter that Roger hasn't trained any really high profile boxers other than Floyd because to me what he has done with him is more impressive than what Roach has done with all of the fighters he has trained combined. And i'm not referring to certain fighters not working with those trainers that I mentioned. Just because you don't work well with every fighter you train with doesn't mean you aren't a great trainer. With Freddie though, he only really looks good with Manny, because Manny has been fighting flat-footed, ruined opponents who are tailor made for him. When he trains fighters against live opponents, they usually struggle and like I have stated before several times, none of his fighters have defence and none of them can adjust either. The trainers I mentioned have taught their boxers how to fight in different styles which is something Freddie hasn't done. Yet they don't get half the credit that he gets. It's absurd and I can't help but think that it has a lot to do with the fact that the guy has parkinsons disease and is a major attention whore which has helped him get a lot of attention. People think he's a greatest trainer of this era and he clearly isn't. Yes this is my point, I do feel Freddie is overated, but to say he isn't great is wrong. They all can turn a special fighter great, but it takes time and they can't turn all of them great because training camps clash, some are priority because they earn u more etc... Also some fighters have flaws that you can't help. Linares has no chin and cuts very easily. Teach Linares defense maybe, but every fighter gets hit. But then Linares may lose simply because his speed, and workrate won him quite a few fights. Everything leads to a pro and con. Linares lost before he got with Roach so I agree that it's not fair to blame Freddie completely for how his career has played out recently. However, if your a great trainer you should be able to look at your guy and say "Ok, this is his weakness and these are his strengths so we need to conceal that by having him use this style which will work", but Freddie didn't do any of that. He's got Linares trying to fight like Manny Pacquiao which is just about the worst thing that you can do considering that he cuts so easily and has weak punch resistance. A great trainer would have recognized this and gave him a more suitable style for success. personally speaking, iv,e watched most if not all of manny,s fights and i see absolutely no change in him since roach took charge, his punch output,defence,footwork,stamima etc have basically remained unchanged. i read some articles were roach stated that he gave manny a right hand!!? "in what fight?? iv,e failed to spot were suddenly manny,s gotten this right hand and it,s much more evident now than from his previous fights, and furthermore, freddie said that the pacquaio that was fighting marquez in 2012 was a completely different pacquaio that fought him in 2008, and would totally overpower marquez and knock him out!!! marquez actually done better this time round and i had marquez winning that fight, which blew everything that freddie had said out of the water. finally, i know you don,t need the credentials of an ATG to be a top trainer, but freddie,s got a record which boasts 13 loses on his own record as a fighter, and why did he not teach himself some of the tricks then, which he,s seemingly trying to teach to his fighters now!! was freddie a slow learner? Very good point. I think that 3rd Marquez fight told us a lot about Freddie as a trainer and a person, and his general intelligence or lack thereof. They overlooked Marquez and had no real strategic gameplan or plan B to use if the first plan went wrong. They just thought "This guy is shot, we'll run through him". Big mistake.

personally speaking, iv,e watched most if not all of manny,s fights and i see absolutely no change in him since roach took charge, his punch output,defence,footwork,stamima etc have basically remained unchanged. i read some articles were roach stated that he gave manny a right hand!!? "in what fight?? iv,e failed to spot were suddenly manny,s gotten this right hand and it,s much more evident now than from his previous fights, and furthermore, freddie said that the pacquaio that was fighting marquez in 2012 was a completely different pacquaio that fought him in 2008, and would totally overpower marquez and knock him out!!! marquez actually done better this time round and i had marquez winning that fight, which blew everything that freddie had said out of the water. finally, i know you don,t need the credentials of an ATG to be a top trainer, but freddie,s got a record which boasts 13 loses on his own record as a fighter, and why did he not teach himself some of the tricks then, which he,s seemingly trying to teach to his fighters now!! was freddie a slow learner?

I think Pedro Diaz is one of the best.

Hmmm the Boxing Writers Association doesn't think he is overrated (and I will take their opinion over ANYONE on the forums). Freddie Roach has won the trainer of the year award 5 times (2003,2006,2008,2009,2010). Tapia,Toney,Pacquaio, Khan..... are among the champs he has trained.

Roger Mayweather. Trains plenty of guys. Had some decent fighters in the past but has the best in the world. I have seen him give bad advice. Floyd trains himself now. If Roger was so good then floyd wouldn't be on the ropes at all vs cotto. Tbh I don't even remember who Roger trained that was world class other than floyd but I dot come from the Us to see. You tell me. Plus Senior trained Floyd his style which you can see from the amateurs. Emmanuel steward. He has had some great fighters. Two of the best heavies in his era but if Wlad and Lewis were 6 foot 2 and 220 lbs his style would not work. He allowed Lewis to get fat and ktfo by Rahman and has done well with wlad who picks his opponents. Prince Nadeem, let Barrera beat him as well as Taylor getting owned by pavlik. Vera owned his Irish fighter too. Steward was unwilling to leave kronk gym for someone recently and their relationship split up. Brother Nadeem? Please, he is great on rules and pre fight talks, but marg was tailor made for mosely, mosely kept saying Mexican style is for him. He then let mosely have a year lay off Berto or not and look at mosely now? For Hopkins pascal was perfect because he is a 4 rounder. Dawson showed Hopkins how to win rounds. I always said this, Hopkins does not deal with guys who have speed. Great? Hmmm, letting your man lose 12 rounders. Nacho trains a few guys, jam does good vs PAC for sure but he targets PAC as a career. He has tune ups and has called PAC out all the time as he moves up... Quite a few names left him like r Marquez and arcs etc.. If roach is not great then neither are those above. You made some good points that I was going to make about those trainers that in the end I just didn't think the TS was worth my time. You can discredit any trainer, I think that is the point you were making, because all those trainers are great, and good at what they do. Nacho is again a trainer who can build a fighter from the ground up based on the Mexican style, and his special fighter obviously being Juan Manuel. Manny Steward is a bit of a specialist like Roach, you can send him in and he can rebuild a fighter and make an impact. He has had a few great partnerships, but Hearns was probably his guy. BUT...all of them have had plenty of failures.

What champions does Roger Mayweather train besides Floyd?

Antonio Tarver didn't win the fight simply because he swept the later half of the rounds. You have to score all 12 rounds- I was- and Tarver arguably, and on my score card, lost almost all of the first 5. From mid fight on, starting in the 6th, he wins most of the following rounds; but as I said in another post I think the 10th round was extremely close. I remember Shobox put up a stat that they both landed 21% and almost at the same number of connects. That said, if you give Kayode the 10th- which I did- combined with his early work in the fight, it goes 6 rounds a piece.3 114-114 draw. I bring this up because the context of the first post was Freddie Roach isn't a great trainer because his guy got schooled but, to be fair, I had to point out I feel his guy got a draw and, if there was a rematch, could get a 'W'. Not arguing for or against Roach in any other way. Just wanted to point that out.

Eddie Futch > Freddie Roach Agreed, but that doesn't mean Roach isn't a great trainer himself. There are many little things the fans cant see the difference in but fighters do. That is why he is sought out.

**NEWS FLASH** ... Lateef Kayode sucks. Why the OP puts all the blame Roach is beyond me. You have to remember, despite how old and washed up Tarver is, Vegas still put Kayode as a 3.5/1 underdog. That's about the same odds as Bradley against Pacquiao. Roach's instructions to Kayode during the middle rounds was to keep circling and stay off the ropes. There was about a 4 to 5 round stretch where Tarver stunned Kayode in every one of those rounds. What would you have Kayode do? Mix it up? Tarver would have probably stopped him had Kayode stopped running. Roach knew his man banked a lot of early rounds, and his only chance at winning was to go the distance. You also have to remember, before Roach, Pacquiao was known as a one-dimensional fighter. He was nothing more than a raw talent with a hell of a left hand. Look at his progression simply from watching all 3 Morales' fights. Who would you credit for that? To say that Roach is a **** trainer is ridiculous and far from the truth.

People are missing the point here. I'm not saying that he's a bad trainer and I give him credit for doing what he's doing in the physical condition that he's in, and i'm not saying that Kayode's loss was purely down to him either, I just don't think that he's a great trainer and a lot of people give him more credit than I believe he deserves. All of his fighters fight the same way, and have no defence. I think that Roger Mayweather, Emanuel Steward, Naazim Richardson and Nacho Beristain are all great trainers who are better at what they do than Freddie Roach. That's not to say that Freddie is a bad trainer, but they are better than him. Nacho proved in the Marquez fight that he's much better. I have already explained this on the first page. I suggest you read it again. I think that a lot of fighters look to train with him because of the planned and overrated success of Manny "I let other people make my decisions for me" Pacquiao who has become very popular by beating up a lot of ruined and handicapped opponents. And the fact that Manny has looked so good in these fights created the illussion that Freddie is this great trainer who has developed and transformed Manny into this unbeatable punching machine, until it was exposed as a complete and utter myth when he fought Marquez for the 3rd time and lost in the eyes on 90% of the boxing public. It proved that Freddie hasn't developed and improved Manny at all in the last few years and that his opposition was just complete trash. People looked at Manny's success and decided to train with Freddie because they thought they would have similar success, but for a lot of them it hasn't worked because they haven't had the luxary of fighting washed up and ruined opponents. The other reason why Freddie has had a lot of people training with him is because he's an attention whore who is always yapping on about anything and everything in a desperate attempt to become more popular which has made him a big name. When your the most well known trainer in the sport people are going to come to you regardless of whether you are a great trainer or not, and he is not. There are several better trainers out there who don't get half the attention and/or credit that he gets. It's very unfair. Your post is so stupid I don't even know where to start. Full of biased, I thought this was a serious thread.

My problem with Roach is that he seems to have a universal formula he's applying to all his fighters. Recipe for failure.

That's it, it's been done. Freddie Roach is a "great" trainer and there's nothing any one can really do about that. He got up there because of Manny Pacquiao. He got way too much credit for only playing matchmaker and negotiator for Pacquiao. I can't see how a trainer who proudly comments on how he wants his fighter to face the once-best when they're no longer the best, when they're past prime and can't pull the trigger, is regarded as a great trainer. Roach should never retire from boxing, if he wants to stop training, he would make a perfect matchmaker and adviser/manager, even a ATG promoter. Cause the guy really knows how to pick the fights for his fighters.

He is a good trainer, that has trained some greats. Cut him a break, the fact that he is even still able to train fighters tells you how great of a person he really is. He can't fight for the fighters, they have to take the blame for winning and losing. People are missing the point here. I'm not saying that he's a bad trainer and I give him credit for doing what he's doing in the physical condition that he's in, and i'm not saying that Kayode's loss was purely down to him either, I just don't think that he's a great trainer and a lot of people give him more credit than I believe he deserves. All of his fighters fight the same way, and have no defence. Who Is a great trainer? I think that Roger Mayweather, Emanuel Steward, Naazim Richardson and Nacho Beristain are all great trainers who are better at what they do than Freddie Roach. That's not to say that Freddie is a bad trainer, but they are better than him. Nacho proved in the Marquez fight that he's much better. What exactly do you think world class means? If you're a top 20 fighter you're world class. If you're top 10 you're elite. Top 3 you're the best of the best for your division. By my count Roach has trained more than 30 world class fighters at on point or another. If the guy wasn't a great trainer fighters wouldn't seek him out. I have already explained this on the first page. I suggest you read it again. I think that a lot of fighters look to train with him because of the planned and overrated success of Manny "I let other people make my decisions for me" Pacquiao who has become very popular by beating up a lot of ruined and handicapped opponents. And the fact that Manny has looked so good in these fights created the illussion that Freddie is this great trainer who has developed and transformed Manny into this unbeatable punching machine, until it was exposed as a complete and utter myth when he fought Marquez for the 3rd time and lost in the eyes on 90% of the boxing public. It proved that Freddie hasn't developed and improved Manny at all in the last few years and that his opposition was just complete trash. People looked at Manny's success and decided to train with Freddie because they thought they would have similar success, but for a lot of them it hasn't worked because they haven't had the luxary of fighting washed up and ruined opponents. The other reason why Freddie has had a lot of people training with him is because he's an attention whore who is always yapping on about anything and everything in a desperate attempt to become more popular which has made him a big name. When your the most well known trainer in the sport people are going to come to you regardless of whether you are a great trainer or not, and he is not. There are several better trainers out there who don't get half the attention and/or credit that he gets. It's very unfair.