Berto vs. Collazo

Here's anothing thing that really bugs me about Berto - he is a big and stocky WW in terms of overall frame, but doesn't make use of that size at all. He has an awful stance where his legs are spread too far apart and he's hunched too far down (which seems to give away a good few inches in height). Also, he's too side-on to his opponent, resulting in him fighting awkwardly when backing up - and not in a good way. From how he stands, his snappy jab ends up being more like a backhanded slap (unlike that of Dawson's, which is like a cobra striking hard and lightning-fast), whilst his excellent handspeed and power almost becomes redundant because he has to take the time to square up in order to throw a flurry. Like Paul Williams, I just don't think he fights effectively for his size and build. There's tons of room to improve. Now, on the other hand, I find that Mosley fights in a bigger way than his size suggests. Height-wise he's not very tall for a WW, and neither does his frame make him look very strong... but it's deceptive, because he fights like a big man in a small man's body - he hits like a Mack truck, is fast in a subway train -ish way, yet doesn't quite have the build to impose himself like Berto should be doing. I was a supporter of Berto's after the Collazo fight, but the poor showing against Urango made me see his glaring flaws and they subsequently ended up bugging me too much to be able to support him any more. I do appreciate his skills and he has plenty of time to improve, but unless he's suddenly become a completely different fighter in the past half-year, Mosley should have this one. Don't know what to tell you like I said on the thread I made about it.....I thought Collazo won all of the debatable rounds which could account for a wide score like mine.....I just liked the way he was constantly working in most rounds, and I don't give a guy a round he was losing because he lands one flashy combo and snaps a guys head back one time in a round. Well there ya go. That's one of the criteria I tend to stick to when scoring - if fighter A is winning most of the round (say, the first 2 minutes) by putting on pressure and landing softer shots, but ends up taking one hard punch from fighter B in the final minute, I still think fighter A should get it because he did more consistent work overall. Granted, many will say that it's all about clean effective punching, but to me that's not the only thing that wins a round. I try hard to look at all aspects besides just flashy, head-snapping punches - who controlled the pace? Who held in desperation the most? Did a fighter throw a lot but not land? How about if one guy throws nothing but shows good defence? What if a fighter is throwing ineffective punches but his opponent throws absolutely nothing? It's all subjective, but kinda part of the fun.

Yeah, the Cotto-Clottey fight was another of those extremely razor-thin decisions that rightfully could've gone either way. On my first 3 viewings, I kept having it 115-112 for Clottey (which I naively called a robbery) and was convinced that he won, but then when I watched the HD version many months later, I had Cotto winning by 114-113. I accept that now. Nonetheless, a score of up to 115-112 either way is acceptable IMO, although 114-113 is more plausible considering how close it was. Some of those rounds, like with Berto-Collazo, were incredibly close to call - but mainly because of the lack of offence from both guys! That's what made it a frustrating fight to watch, even though I still consider it a FOTY candidate. At least with Berto-Collazo, it was non-stop action with at least one fighter throwing in each round; but with Cotto-Clottey, you had a few rounds where neither seemed to want to attack - so you'd have to score the round based on who dictated the pace or something really specific. But like you said, Clottey has talent and it's a huge shame that he's not fighting more often. I wish he'd drop the diva mentality about his own self-worth and just go out there and fight anyone to keep busy - there are plenty of talented guys looking for a match-up, and by beating them he could make himself a shoe-in for another title shot. I actually think Cotto should give him a rematch, but I'm probably in the minority there... Others have disagreed with me on this, but seeing Berto struggle and look downright lost against a blown-up LWW in Urango brought him down a few notches in my estimation. Sure, he trounced him and shut him out, but by rights he should've made it look much easier than he did - all he did was hit and hold, and throw backhands instead of hard jabs (hence why I laugh when I hear people praise his jab, when Dawson's is miles better and isn't thrown like a backhand). Meanwhile, Mosley has an underrated jab, an iron chin and a truckload of power. If he shows up in that vicious, animalistic way he did against Margarito, he should breeze this... But if he shows up rusty and frustrated like in the Mayorga fight (which was excusable because it was at 154), it's going to be a tough night. Again I can feel yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *loooooooooooooooool* Of course you can say Cotto-Clottey rematch BUT Cotto fought Pacquiao instead and now he probably has two more fight left... I think you can't blame him... Clottey will always be a tough fight with less money... and he already beat him... so from his standpoint on... if Cotto was younger yes, but I think at this stage of his career I can understand it... Yeah, the Urango match was kind of strange... Urango is really guy with brute force... I think he gave him way too much credit and held him way to often... probably thought about how often Collazo landed and ain't wanted that from Urango... Berto has some flaws... a guy like him would be perfect for Mayweather Senior to train... Mayweather's system is based on reflexes and Berto's style is made for reflexes... fighters like Hatton or even your boy Katsidis (I enjoy his fights pretty much *lol*) are wrong fighters for Mayweather Sr. because their style isn't based on reflexes... Berto could learn a lot and especially defensive wise... I usually like to see the abilities of a fighter and not his flaws... I think Berto has a lot of abilities... he simply doesn't really know to use them right... he needs someone who teaches him. It's the same with Mosley by the way... with his physical tools Mosley is a big underarchiever in my book... now with Naazim you saw what happened against Margarito... he had a plan... he knew what to use and how and it was an masterpiece... I agree... Mosley has a good jab if he uses it... and if he will he will make it a lot easier on him. I still have Mosley in this one on points. Berto will have to overcome his flaws and Mosley... it won't be easy... but that's his spotlight... he has TO if he wants to be a player

Anyone who had Collazo winning that fight don't know how to score fights. Collazo had a cut over his eye opened up by a punch and he was winded and ready to go at the end. The last two rounds was what determined who deserved that win and Berto won them handily. I know there are posters who are not Puerto Rican that had Berto losing that fight. But I don't think I've come across one Puerto Rican poster who had Berto winning either. Lol. Quit your bitching about Puerto Ricans. I had Berto winning, and I don't like Berto. I thought it was pretty ****ing clear too. 8-4 Collazo? Insanity. I seriously don't understand what people are watching sometimes.

Anyone who had Collazo winning that fight don't know how to score fights. Collazo had a cut over his eye opened up by a punch and he was winded and ready to go at the end. The last two rounds was what determined who deserved that win and Berto won them handily. I know there are posters who are not Puerto Rican that had Berto losing that fight. But I don't think I've come across one Puerto Rican poster who had Berto winning either. Lol.

PittyPat: but keep in mind regarding the opening round that Berto comes back with a hard right hand with just under a minute left in the round he even caught Collazo on the ropes and landed a couple good shots, but I don't think it was enough to win him the round.

I felt Berto won the fight, difference being he was landing the hard shots while Collazo was arm punching down stretch, trying to stay busy whilst he was tiring.

no way berto won 11 12 by a mile but not 11 Like I said earlier, round 11 was a very subjective one - it all depends on whether one prefers Collazo winning the first 2 minutes due to pressure and a lot of punches thrown (not necessarily effective), or Berto winning the last minute with harder punches (effective, but he wasted the first 2 minutes). I actually had to go back and re-watch that particular round a few times before I settled on giving it to Collazo. Just one of those swing rounds, y'know... How did people score the opening round? I had a tough time with that one as well, because IMO Berto was doing better work overall, but Collazo landed that one punch which made Berto stumble, followed by a flurry on him against the ropes. I initially gave it to Berto, but I changed my when I re-watched it. The most hurtful exchange of the round belonged to Collazo, so I felt it had to go to him.

again according to compubox Berto had a 21-4 edge in power punches landed in round 7 **and on compubox landed more punches + had a higher % for round 6 if you want to say Collazo outworked Berto thoroughout and won "easy" fine, but don't use the 6th or 7th rounds as examples ... because one or both of those could probably swing you from a Collazo to a Berto W.

I thought Collazo won as well but in a close fight. He could have bitched but people remember the last couple rounds more than what happened earlier and berto won the last two rounds. but with the point deduction and seeing how close the fight was it is hard to see how berto ended up with the decision no way berto won 11 12 by a mile but not 11

That's a bit steep. At the most Collazo might've sneaked 7-5, but anything more than that is just not possible if you really watch closely (I used the 60fps HD version). Berto also had some good rounds in there, so he did his fair share to win as well. I think 7-5 either way is acceptable, but 6-6 makes the most sense IMO. I found it to be similar to Pavlik-Taylor II and Cotto-Clottey. All razor-thin decisions that could've gone a round either way, or a draw. Robberies they ain't. ii watched it on my 50 inch sony bravia 1080p hdtv and rewinded it pleanty of times 2 see who was landing 7 5 is fine too plus he had the point deduction collazo one by a mile

I actually had Berto winning 114-113, if Collazo just had won one of the last two rounds, tsk tsk tsk...

for one, 8-4 Collazo seems way too wide for one. 2ndly I gave Berto rounds 2, 5, 6-8, 11+12 and already mentioned, but scoring boxing is probably one of THE most subjective things in all of sports as take that 7th round which Lederman gave to Collazo. in that round (6th) Berto actually had a pretty significant edge in punches landed but if I scored that 7th round for Collazo (like Lederman did) .. he'd (Luis) win 114-113 on my scorecard. and at the end of the day IMO Collazo gave up too many rounds (7, 8, 12) and in a close fight you just can't afford to do that which is why I really feel Collazo screwed himself more then anything. because even the 7th round for example compubox had something like a 21 to 7 edge in punches landed and half way through a fight you cannot shut down like that and expect to win a close fight **it was the giving of the middle rounds away that cost Collazo in this fight, because keep in mind it's not like he was beating Berto pillar to post as some would act ... he did take rounds off, and it cost him dearly.

Yup had it 8-4 for Collazo. Still got your scorecard? I'd love to see exactly how someone could have it by that much. It doesn't seem plausible at all.

I thought Collazo edged it but I can understand an argument either way. Collazo never got the good from judges in title bouts.

Yeah, Clottey is really a bit of a dissapointment to me... I always liked his style... but he first of all seems to be a diva negotiating wise... doesn't know his market value and in his fights, where he has the chance to take it to the next level... he finds a way to loose instead of winning... somehow he seems to be lacking mentally something... I personally thought that Cotto won close... and could have seen Clottey winning but he has no one to blame but himself for the last few rounds... that he sits around yes... it is bad... it won't help him and ain't no spring chicken anymore too... dude has talent, more IMO then Collazo... it is sad that it will get flushed away... Yeah, the Cotto-Clottey fight was another of those extremely razor-thin decisions that rightfully could've gone either way. On my first 3 viewings, I kept having it 115-112 for Clottey (which I naively called a robbery) and was convinced that he won, but then when I watched the HD version many months later, I had Cotto winning by 114-113. I accept that now. Nonetheless, a score of up to 115-112 either way is acceptable IMO, although 114-113 is more plausible considering how close it was. Some of those rounds, like with Berto-Collazo, were incredibly close to call - but mainly because of the lack of offence from both guys! That's what made it a frustrating fight to watch, even though I still consider it a FOTY candidate. At least with Berto-Collazo, it was non-stop action with at least one fighter throwing in each round; but with Cotto-Clottey, you had a few rounds where neither seemed to want to attack - so you'd have to score the round based on who dictated the pace or something really specific. But like you said, Clottey has talent and it's a huge shame that he's not fighting more often. I wish he'd drop the diva mentality about his own self-worth and just go out there and fight anyone to keep busy - there are plenty of talented guys looking for a match-up, and by beating them he could make himself a shoe-in for another title shot. I actually think Cotto should give him a rematch, but I'm probably in the minority there... I personally give Berto a good chance... on the one hand you of course will say if Collazo gives him problems Mosley will kill him.. but Collazo is a guy who is fundamentally sound... Shane fights more like a boxer/puncher... I think that will help Berto. If Shane comes with a jab he will make it an easy night for him but if the before Naazim Shane shows up it will be a fight... The reason why I still favor Mosley is because of Berto's lack of defense skill... against Berto he held a lot, against Collazo got hit a lot... I still lean towards Mosley... but believe that this one is much closer then most believe... if Berto is game... if he comes in like shit, especially mentally not prepared... he will get whipped Others have disagreed with me on this, but seeing Berto struggle and look downright lost against a blown-up LWW in Urango brought him down a few notches in my estimation. Sure, he trounced him and shut him out, but by rights he should've made it look much easier than he did - all he did was hit and hold, and throw backhands instead of hard jabs (hence why I laugh when I hear people praise his jab, when Dawson's is miles better and isn't thrown like a backhand). Meanwhile, Mosley has an underrated jab, an iron chin and a truckload of power. If he shows up in that vicious, animalistic way he did against Margarito, he should breeze this... But if he shows up rusty and frustrated like in the Mayorga fight (which was excusable because it was at 154), it's going to be a tough night.

More truth. I like your thinking. :cool: Speaking of guys who sit on their ass, Clottey is one of the worst culprits of that - I think he's had at least 4 opportunities to fight someone since Cotto (Mosley, Holt, Williams and Rosales), but all have fallen through. Hence, I think a fight between him and Collazo would be good. The winner could then get a shot at one of the current WW champs. Oh yeah, I'm majorly buzzing for that fight. I also love how it's so similar to last year - both Mosley and Berto fighting in January, but this time against each other. I'm glad the fight got made in the end, because I was never too keen on Mosley-Clottey, and we all knew neither Pacquiao nor Mayweather was ever going to give him a shot. So regardless of who pulls out the win, we get one step closer to unifying the WW division. However, I am naturally fearful for Mosley. I think he can win this, but like anyone in boxing he could suddenly age overnight and get his ass handed to him by the younger fighter in Berto. As overrated as I think the latter is (whilst respecting his skills), there is no way in hell Mosley should take this fight lightly - he's got a fast, powerful, young, undefeated guy in front of him who is hungry for success. He needs to be on top of his game to dispatch of him. Ring rust is not what he needs out there. THX dude and you're welcome *lol* Yeah, Clottey is really a bit of a dissapointment to me... I always liked his style... but he first of all seems to be a diva negotiating wise... doesn't know his market value and in his fights, where he has the chance to take it to the next level... he finds a way to loose instead of winning... somehow he seems to be lacking mentally something... I personally thought that Cotto won close... and could have seen Clottey winning but he has no one to blame but himself for the last few rounds... that he sits around yes... it is bad... it won't help him and ain't no spring chicken anymore too... dude has talent, more IMO then Collazo... it is sad that it will get flushed away... I personally give Berto a good chance... on the one hand you of course will say if Collazo gives him problems Mosley will kill him.. but Collazo is a guy who is fundamentally sound... Shane fights more like a boxer/puncher... I think that will help Berto. If Shane comes with a jab he will make it an easy night for him but if the before Naazim Shane shows up it will be a fight... The reason why I still favor Mosley is because of Berto's lack of defense skill... against Berto he held a lot, against Collazo got hit a lot... I still lean towards Mosley... but believe that this one is much closer then most believe... if Berto is game... if he comes in like shit, especially mentally not prepared... he will get whipped

I just got around to watching this war for the second time (it seemed even better then how I remembered it!), and I had an identical scorecard to that of when I first saw it a year ago... C || 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 || 114 B || 9 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 || 113 The really close rounds IMO were the first round (even though Berto stumbled and looked hurt, one could make a case for him still doing enough to win the round) and the 11th (just one of those swing rounds which Collazo had in the bag initially, but then allowed Berto to rally back). Overall, definitely not a robbery, but I believe Collazo won - by the tiniest of margins, just because of Berto's point deduction. Surely such a close fight requires a rematch. Whether or not Berto wins later this month, Collazo thoroughly deserves a second chance. While i think Berto won your scorecard is respectful, really depends on how you see it. I agree a rematch is in order.

berto won the last two rounds. He definitely won the 12th, but the 11th was a tricky one. It needs to be divided into 3 separate phases - Collazo was winning the first 2 minutes with volume and pressure, until he gassed out and let Berto land some harder shots to close the round. It just goes to show how subjective boxing is - did Berto do enough in the final minute to steal the round with harder shots, or should it have gone to Collazo for the opening 2 minutes of pressure and lots of punches thrown? It was very, very hard to call.

Why not a rematch... the problem is only that Collazo is pretty much sitting on his ass now forever... so IF Berto should beat Mosley I guess he can kiss Berto goodbye... the fight was good but Collazo simply has no following to demand it... if Berto stands to his word all power to him... but I guess nobody would blame him if he goes on and fights guys like Williams, Mayweather etc. if something like that should happen... we will see... More truth. I like your thinking. :cool: Speaking of guys who sit on their ass, Clottey is one of the worst culprits of that - I think he's had at least 4 opportunities to fight someone since Cotto (Mosley, Holt, Williams and Rosales), but all have fallen through. Hence, I think a fight between him and Collazo would be good. The winner could then get a shot at one of the current WW champs. I'm excited for Mosley-Berto to tell you the truth... I like what I've seen heart wise from Berto and Mosley seems to have his hunger back... at least he talks like that... should be interesting Oh yeah, I'm majorly buzzing for that fight. I also love how it's so similar to last year - both Mosley and Berto fighting in January, but this time against each other. I'm glad the fight got made in the end, because I was never too keen on Mosley-Clottey, and we all knew neither Pacquiao nor Mayweather was ever going to give him a shot. So regardless of who pulls out the win, we get one step closer to unifying the WW division. However, I am naturally fearful for Mosley. I think he can win this, but like anyone in boxing he could suddenly age overnight and get his ass handed to him by the younger fighter in Berto. As overrated as I think the latter is (whilst respecting his skills), there is no way in hell Mosley should take this fight lightly - he's got a fast, powerful, young, undefeated guy in front of him who is hungry for success. He needs to be on top of his game to dispatch of him. Ring rust is not what he needs out there.

Just rewatched Berto vs Collazo. Damn did Collazo whip Berto's ass..Berto rallied in the 12th but Collazo was outworking him through the whole fight. He should of bitched and moaned on HBO like Paulie and maybe he would of received a second shot. I thought Collazo won as well but in a close fight. He could have bitched but people remember the last couple rounds more than what happened earlier and berto won the last two rounds. but with the point deduction and seeing how close the fight was it is hard to see how berto ended up with the decision