Tyson vs Lewis Primes

Prime for Prime for Prime, Holy beats both of them.

Tyson did beat better competition then Hamed. Not the best, but he definitely beat better competition then Hamed. For a heavyweight, Tysons competition was not all that terrible when you look at guys like Dempsey, and although great, Louis' set of competition itself wasn't too great if a guy like Galento was in the top 10 for how many years? I'm not hating on these guy's just it's ludacris to constantly put Tyson down and say he fought garbage competition. Hang on. Where's the evidence to back up your first claim? Hamed beat a bagfull of past, present and future belt holders. If I were to be charitable I could claim Tyson's opponents were at best equal in terms of quality. No sane person could argue that the fighters Tyson bowled over were superior. Repeating my argument: Both Tyson & Hamed burst onto the boxing scene young. Both blew their weight divisions apart (ref above for opponents) Both unified. Both spent time at the top. Hamed was beaten on points by a LEGEND of the sport. Tyson was knocked horizontal by a MEDIOCRE fighter. As stated, I give Tyson a point over Hamed because he came back (without avenging the defeat) but by that time he was a long way short of being a good fighter. Everyone keeps telling me Tyson deserves to be ranked in the list of all-time greats whilst Hamed is nowhere - but no-one has produced any credible evidence to support that argument.

If Lennox makes it past round 4 or 5 he'll win a clear cut decision or maybe a late TKO. Mike obviously was ferocious but against a taller man with boxing skills and a decent chin he would have some problems. If I had to bet $ it'd be Lewis by decision. No way Mike wins if it goes the distance./

When I was a kid I used to always argue that a young Tyson wouldve beaten Holyfield, but now Im not so sure. Holyfield and Tyson are on total opposites of the spectrum when it comes to heart. Its natural for Holyfield but Tyson needs to be constantly pushed and motivated. Tyson will only be as confident as the guy in his corner, so the question is: how would Rooney react to elite competition? Game planning for Tony Tucker is one thing but Lennox Lewis is bigger, stronger, and more technically sound than anyone Tyson has ever faced. Would a flinch in Rooneys confidence trickle down into Tyson's performance? Rooney seemed very confident at the time...almost cocky if you will. He learned to be confident from Cus and I'm guessing since he had Tyson as his fighter, he wouldn't flinch. The only thing Rooney seemed worried about with Tyson or any opponent he faced, was getting Tyson to live up to his ability. I"ve also read an article from Steve Lott, if we can take his word, that Tyson was constantly improving in the gym and was actually always better in the gym than in fights. But only so much of that ability would transfer over to fights. John Scully has talked about this as well with fighters. I think with maturity Tyson would have continued to transfer over more and more to the ring. We saw it happen from his first pro fight to his win over Spinks. But, Tyson in the end couldn't handle certain things and his flaws were never filled in completely to cement a solid foundation and he went on a road of one mistake after another. Bad choices. Rooney mentioned Tyson fighting Holyfield by the way. That's the fight they wanted and it was actually set to happen. There is a lot to pick up from Lewis...he isn't perfect. Look at the Mercer fight for example...that would be enough for someone like Rooney to pick up on if not fights before. And yes, if Rooney is not confident and Tyson sees this, Tyson will not be at his best.

With the proper guidence we are not even having this conversation because anyone with 2 eyes could see a young hungry well trained Mike tyson would have crushed any version of Lennox Lewis you put in front of him. For god sakes an old washed up untrained Tyson who wanted his gloves cut off took Lewis into the 8th round.....Lefty The only way Tyson is beating Lewis is if he wears an Oliver Mccall or journeymans mask to the match. If Lewis knows hes going up against an elite fighter like Mike Tyson, hes going to prepare accordingly and win by a boring decision. Its just the way he rolls. I imagine Tyson winning the 1st 3 rounds, and Lewis sweeping the next 9 to win by wide UD.

When I was a kid I used to always argue that a young Tyson wouldve beaten Holyfield, but now Im not so sure. Holyfield and Tyson are on total opposites of the spectrum when it comes to heart. Its natural for Holyfield but Tyson needs to be constantly pushed and motivated. Tyson will only be as confident as the guy in his corner, so the question is: how would Rooney react to elite competition? Game planning for Tony Tucker is one thing but Lennox Lewis is bigger, stronger, and more technically sound than anyone Tyson has ever faced. Would a flinch in Rooneys confidence trickle down into Tyson's performance? Good question but if you witnessed the man in front of you destroy anyone and everyone you put in front of him how much confidnce would you have in him to beat the odds? Because by Tyson achieving what he did by the ripe old age of 21 was just that he beat the odds. Most of the friends ffoes and population from his area didn't amke it to 21 without being in jail or dead. he landed himself in a detention center and then landed himself in history. With the proper guidence we are not even having this conversation because anyone with 2 eyes could see a young hungry well trained Mike tyson would have crushed any version of Lennox Lewis you put in front of him. For god sakes an old washed up untrained Tyson who wanted his gloves cut off took Lewis into the 8th round.....Lefty

When I was a kid I used to always argue that a young Tyson wouldve beaten Holyfield, but now Im not so sure. Holyfield and Tyson are on total opposites of the spectrum when it comes to heart. Its natural for Holyfield but Tyson needs to be constantly pushed and motivated. Tyson will only be as confident as the guy in his corner, so the question is: how would Rooney react to elite competition? Game planning for Tony Tucker is one thing but Lennox Lewis is bigger, stronger, and more technically sound than anyone Tyson has ever faced. Would a flinch in Rooneys confidence trickle down into Tyson's performance?

QUOTE=Soir;5380792]This is the reason Bowe chickened out from a Lewis fight. I guess Bowe calculated how those blows would feel without head gear and just said the hell with it. Lennox actively pursued all of the young top heavyweights of the 90's but was denied by King and was actually paid MILLIONS of dollars to not face Holyfield or Tyson. Lennox was the most feared man in boxing for the majority of the 90's. You know I've always credited the Win to Lewis with this bit even though I never knew all the details of why it didn't happen. I just didn't like that Bowe threw the belt away and didn't make the fight with Lewis...but I too admit that I am a bit ignorant on all the details of why it didn't happen because at that time I wasn't into the details of the paperwork and negotiation process as I am now somewhat and I haven't bothered to dive deeper into the subject....even though I should. So it isn't a cemented statement/opinion. And with that slight ignorance on the topic; I do think Lewis was left out in the cold and was actually serious in making fights happen but it was out of his power to do so. But note: That Bowe wasn't the same Bowe that fought Holyfield the first time when he was trained by Eddie Futch. Although, and this goes with the Tyson bit you mentioned...the character flaw was still there although covered up because of who was around him. But those flaws resurface when room is allowed to be made. Tyson paid Lewis step aside money for obvious reasons (in my opinion) which I've discussed before. To sum it up: Tyson wasn't that good of a fighter at that time and he knew it and going up against someone like Lewis (who he knew) would have exposed that. Tyson didn't want to take that risk because he had a heavy debt to pay back. The Tyson Bruno actually faced had a better chance to win than what ended up showing up against Lewis much later on...but it probably still wouldn't have mattered other than a punchers chance. Tyson took on Holyfield at the time only because he thought Holyfield was past it, which he was; I don't deny that. But because Evander was the active fighter and still trained...and like Holyfield said on why he knew he would beat Tyson...Tyson hadn't taken punches since he got out of prison...and it was basically easy coasting for Tyson at that point...Holyfield exposed him. He also exposed the piss-poor training habits of Tyson as well which Tommy Brooks mentions. That's the problem with rotting away in jail and not taking your career seriously enough which goes back to right after the Spinks fight. Everything post-prison was just to milk the boxing public in order to make a buck to pay back Uncle Sam while diving deeper into a life-style that wasn't healthy...which goes with his admittance to :alcoholic I think Tyson was just so damn talented that his version of mailing it in was better than most peoples best. Even in that infamous fight with the Scranton kid HE WAS WINNING by a landslide, but he had already quit in his head, and was on the verge of throwing in the towel. Deep down he was always insecure about himself..before Rooney, after Rooney and even when he was with Rooney. Its part of him and it never left. I posted up the Tommy Brooks article...did you read that? The mind-set of Tyson is a bit bothersome for a boxing fan just like it was him. I think Tyson needed to be motivated to fight at his best and even then; he needed constant pushing even during the fights which we saw with him during his Rooney days. Rooney used to get on him to use the jab, go to the body more...punch out of breaks, throw in combos, etc. Tyson would do it when told, but the fact that he had to be ordered to do it, shows a flaw. This is also why you could hear Rooney shouting numbers out during the fight in order to give Tyson the answers on what to do. And when Tyson came back to the corner, Rooney (in a calm manner) would get Tyson to follow command. Without someone like Rooney and being on his own....Tyson was just a raw phenom talent, but not polished. Kind of like having the best piano imaginable but it being out of tuned. And every time you play it, it has to be constantly tuned afterwards by a specialist right for that particular piano. Or, what I've said many times before...a Formula 1 Ferrari. But there is no question the fighter Atlas had wasn't the fighter Rooney had/trained. If it was, no way does Tyson go as far as he did. But yes, there still were certain flaws that stuck...but they weren't as bright while being trained/guided by Rooney. Tyson was still very young as well and if you take his amateur career into account, which wasn't much, he was learning on the job at 18 when he turned pro. You can even see the improvement from 18-20/Title...and from 20-Spinks. He was better technically and his confidence kept growing. He was maturing as a fighter and he was starting to believe in himself. He was Champion now and now he seemed to feel highly about himself. It was interesting to hear about Tyson's bald spot {Alopecia areata} was caused by heavy stress. I've always wondered why he had that spot during certain fights when he was younger. One thing that was telling during his career (with Rooney) was when a fighter held him to much, Tyson seemed to get frustrated. He didn't mind so much when he clinched, but when someone else did it to him to much...and that is key...to much...since he didn't seem to mind if they held a bit since it slowed down the fight (although I could be wrong)...but Tyson liked to dictate the fight his way. You clinch him to much and don't punch back and since there is no opening to counter, it frustrates him. But that was Tyson's fault with allowing his opponent to clinch and we've seen this in fights and with Rooney correcting him by telling him to use the jab. You can see the rise of Tyson from his first Pro fight at 18 to winning the title at 20...and then on to unifying the title against Spinks. And then the decline. It was noted in the McBride fight that Tyson was biting down on his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days. And before the McBride fight, we saw fights like Botha where he tried to foul his way out...and of course Holyfield where he bit Holyfield's ear because he couldn't deal with the pressure and was ill equiped to fight Holyfield. He was a mess at that point as was reverting back to his street-days. That's what happens when you are not properly trained and have the answers. Being well trained and guided builds your confidence...it gives you confidence. At least that is what I think. I could be wrong. Opinions also change as more information comes in.

This is the reason Bowe chickened out from a Lewis fight. I guess Bowe calculated how those blows would feel without head gear and just said the hell with it. Lennox actively pursued all of the young top heavyweights of the 90's but was denied by King and was actually paid MILLIONS of dollars to not face Holyfield or Tyson. Lennox was the most feared man in boxing for the majority of the 90's. I love the complete lack of impartiality you show in all your posts. Lewis was a huge risk fight for Bowe but a prime Bowe (who beat a prime Holyfield twice and stopped him once) was also a huge risk fight for Lewis. Who knows who would have won if they'd fought back then. Bowe dumped the belt because, like many other champions (including Holmes before him) he resented being dictated to by the sanctioning bodies. Subsequently the fight should have been made, but the fact that it wasn't was more due to his promoter Rock Newman, who was an arsehole; and also to the fact that the US television networks were simply not interested in Lewis back then. They thought Lewis was boring. If HBO or Showtime had wanted a Lewis-Bowe fight, it would have happened. Tyson's $4 million step-aside money was paid when Tyson was way past his prime (prime as in best boxing years, not physical prime), and when Tyson was trying to cash out and pay his IRS debts. Lewis hadn't even turned professional when Tyson was at his peak as a boxer. Holyfield never paid any step aside money. And again the main reason that fight wasn't made earlier was that HBO and Showtime weren't interested in Lewis back then and considered him to be boring. None of which was Lewis's fault, but that is beside the point. The point is that regardless of why the fights didn't happen, they didn't happen, and because of that, Lewis never fought a truly elite boxer in his prime. Which is not necessarily to say that he would not have beaten those fighters had he fought them at their peak, but it does mean that the fact that he beat everyone he faced proves very little. He's an ATG fighter but not primarily for that reason.

And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that. This is the reason Bowe chickened out from a Lewis fight. I guess Bowe calculated how those blows would feel without head gear and just said the hell with it. Lennox actively pursued all of the young top heavyweights of the 90's but was denied by King and was actually paid MILLIONS of dollars to not face Holyfield or Tyson. Lennox was the most feared man in boxing for the majority of the 90's. So you are buying the Teddy Atlas theory or are you on line with what I would say which is that Tyson quit after Spinks? Not sure which one you are with. I'm more on line with he quit after Spinks because he stopped taking his career seriously and didn't prepare the same. In a way, that is quitting. . I think Tyson was just so damn talented that his version of mailing it in was better than most peoples best. Even in that infamous fight with the Scranton kid HE WAS WINNING by a landslide, but he had already quit in his head, and was on the verge of throwing in the towel. Deep down he was always insecure about himself..before Rooney, after Rooney and even when he was with Rooney. Its part of him and it never left.

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go fvck himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole. Poet NO, that wasn't what I was getting at. Tyson's win can't be tarnished because...ONE...it was a past prime Holmes so even if we call it a good win, it wasn't a great win...and TWO...even if Holmes did manage to get up, he would have went right back down and out anyway even though I still say he was KTFO already so he wasn't getting up. So either way, Tyson wins by KO. Holmes gets up, he goes down even worse. It's going to happen no matter what. And I like your talk :)

This is where we have a difference of opinion. I believe he quit in the Douglas fight. I also believe he quit in the 1st Holyfield fight. A supremely talented individual like Tyson can quit mentally and still look pretty decent in the ring. We know Tyson can handle pressure from a good fighter like Ruddock, but we have no idea how he would react to an elite fighter like Lennox, Vitali or Evander. Tyson was never tested by anyone noteworthy under Kevin Rooney so how can you say he would have beaten any version of Lennox Lewis? Its all based on wishful thinking and not on any facts. So you are buying the Teddy Atlas theory or are you on line with what I would say which is that Tyson quit after Spinks? Not sure which one you are with. I'm more on line with he quit after Spinks because he stopped taking his career seriously and didn't prepare the same. In a way, that is quitting. But Tyson didn't quit against Douglas if we base it soley on what took place in the ring and all the elements involved. First you have to remember that Tyson was not in the best shape and when you are not in the best shape, it will effect you mentally. Most fighters after they exhaust will find a way out either by laying up against the ropes and take punishment without swinging back so the ref can stop it....get hit and go down on a knee...foul out...do something illegal...and not come out the next round. Tyson kept coming forward despite being tired. He was getting his ass kicked from at least the 2nd round and even in the first, started taking heavy shots. I made a thread about this so you can review that thread if you like. I wrote a bit of what I thought http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272029 I've also stated a while back about the overrating of Tyson and it touched on what you said towards the end. In a way, we don't really know in full how good he was because by the time he did step up to elite fighters like Holyfield and Lewis, he was no longer at his best. We can only see certan things from when he was trained under Rooney when he fought his opponents that match up and compare. And this is why I'm not with some others calling Tyson the best ever. And like Tyson, we've seen Lewis vulnerable as well.

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go fvck himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole. Poetit seems like everybody who disagrees with your hatred towards mike is an asshole. Why dont you go into another thread and see what others are saying about the stoppage. Looks like you the only one with that opinion. you know what, why dont you go **** yourself. Do everyone on this forum this great favor.

Tyson all the way. Put it this way, a prime Micheal Spinks would probably outbox a prime Lewis.

Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up. You also seem to seriously under-rate Holmes as well, which doesn't help your credibility. And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that. Your apparent belief that it is, is what constitutes wishful thinking. How was Lewis tested more so? he fought Tysons left over's, Past it Holyfields, The shell of a former Morrison, he never fought a single prime fighter that makes his competition looks so much better than Mikes. Marginally better because of quantity perhaps. Lewis just fought a lot of "good" fighters, nothing special. He came at a time when the best fighters were on their way out. The Morrison that fought Foreman could have gave him huge trouble, the Holyfield that fought Foreman would have beat him. sry I was replying to the quoted text in your post* A prime hugny well trained Iron mike steam rolls Lewis and Holyfield prime for prime. I said it. The Tyson that was coached by Rooney not eh maniac that came after. The guy who was nice and well mannered in public and spoke about boxing history in interviews like no other prodigy I have ever seen on tape. this kid was the "REAL DEAL ALL PUN INTENDED" He would bob and weave his way around Lewis' jab and crack that glass chin in 3 rounds. i can see it the ripping hooks and uppercut combos to the body the over hand right Lewis was trembling over the Tyson he fought in 2002. The one punch fighter looking for another big pay day. Not the Iron Mike on a mission to make Cus' prediction come true. That Mike would have beat Lewis and asked Holyfield if he wanted some too. To discredit the Holmes win is pure dislike for a misguided soul and trying to be little his accomplishments to prove a point in which you are only making your self look biased and foolish. If you say Lewis is all that because he first fought to a draw with Evander and then beat Holyfield be a close decision 7ears after Holmes fought to a close decision with Evander which was 7 years after Tyson knocked Holmes the F out....Really listen to yourself stop think line those things up and repeat it again....If you say Lewis is all that because he first fought to a draw with Evander and then beat Holyfield be a close decision 7ears after Holmes fought to a close decision with Evander which was 7 years after Tyson knocked Holmes the F out....really?? Then to go and say Lewis avenged his losses and beat everyone he fought great accomplishment but we aren't talking about the better resumes we are talking head to head prime for prime.....Lefty

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go fvck himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole. Poet This seems like a personal vendetta to me. I don't honestly see how Holmes could have got up either but I don't see why it matters either way. Seems to me that it matters to both you and Benny simply because you both like to be right, and for no other reason. If you must continue with it, please could you take it off-line? And Benny and you are (other than this weird exchange) two of the best and most knowledgeable posters on here, so it's crazy for you to be throwing insults at each other. Neither of you are douche bags.

Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up. How was Lewis tested more so? he fought Tysons left over's, Past it Holyfields, The shell of a former Morrison, he never fought a single prime fighter that makes his competition looks so much better than Mikes. Marginally better because of quantity perhaps. Lewis just fought a lot of "good" fighters, nothing special. He came at a time when the best fighters were on their way out. The Morrison that fought Foreman could have gave him huge trouble, the Holyfield that fought Foreman would have beat him. sry I was replying to the quoted text in your post*

Tyson was never tested by anyone noteworthy under Kevin Rooney so how can you say he would have beaten any version of Lennox Lewis? Its all based on wishful thinking and not on any facts. Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up. You also seem to seriously under-rate Holmes as well, which doesn't help your credibility. And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that. Your apparent belief that it is, is what constitutes wishful thinking.

You can make the same case against Tyson then as he was rocked by big uppercuts more than once during his prime so clearly he was susceptable to it (see the Tucker and Bruno fights). It works both ways as you can take isolated snapshots from any fighter's career and generalize it. Now before any Lewis fan-bois jump on that as proof Lennox beats Tyson because Lewis has a good uppercut let me say that the uppercut is NOT a smart punch to throw at the range Tyson liked to fight: The punch would probably miss and Lewis WOULD get countered. The truth is ALL fighters get hit: Even the best defensive fighters one might care to name such as Pep or Whitaker got hit repeatedly in every fight they fought. It's simply impossible to go through a professional fight without getting hit at least some no matter how good you are defensively. The difference between good defensive fighters and poor ones is how frequently they got hit in their fights not whether they got hit at all. To me, for a fighter to considered particularly vulnerable to a punch he has to be tagged with it repeatedly in a fight ie. Kostya Tszyu against Vince Phillips and the overhand right, Hearns against Hagler same punch. THEN you have a case. Poet Tyson was susceptible to uppercuts, it was the one punch that could catch him and do damage, just rather dangerous to throw if you weren't quick enough. I see what you are saying though, neither Holmes, Ali, or Tyson really got tagged a whole lot by the same punch. Although Ali almost makes the book, just he was so damn tough.

Then obviously you're incapable of reading the time because the referee is removing his mouthpiece at the 7:23 mark. I have no doubt that when Tyson's involved you only see what you want to see. You might want to refrain from drinking the Tyson brand KoolAid next time you post in thread involving him. Poet Don't you find it weird that Holmes is flat on his back with his arms spread open? When someone is generally trying to get up they don't lie on their back in a relaxed state. If he was struggling to get up bu the ref wouldn't let him then I'd see the point. He looked pretty lifeless to me. I re watched it a few times. the post fight interview Holmes seemed like he was just recovering from a KO. You are getting mad at BLeonard but he's arguing a logical point. I really couldn't see Holmes getting up to beat 10. The most I could see is him stumbling up and falling again.