Roy Jones Pound per pound was much better than Duran. Duran fans are simply blind!!

wpink117y ago

Duran got beat by everyone on here. Leonard beat everyone on here. 2nd.Ray is a welter,, Hagler is a natural hmmm middle Did pac-man move up and beat good fighters did Roy Jones move up Did mosley move up Did DLH move up Did Robinson Move up did Armstrong move up did Langford move up did Hearns move up did arguello move up In fact who did nt move up.... So the point is, Duran move up like everyone else has, and he simply kept on getting his ass kicked, unlike most other fighters. Not only did he get his ass kicked by legends but also people like Dejesus, and Laing..All before the age of 34. Who at lightweight that Duran beat was so great that Bert Sugar, Espn, or the ring magazine has thought highly enough of this fighter to rank them in their top 100 (bert sugar) top 50(espn) top 80 (the ring). So what that says is Duran had a long lightwieght career in which he beat a lof bums, and at best several decent to good fighters. His only GREAT WIN vs a fighter that is considered a all time top pound per pound fighter was win over Sugar Ray leoanrd. A fight in which leonard CHOSE not to use his boxing skills, and Duran still only won by 1 round. 1 round reversed Duran loses. You bring up how duran should be given kudos for avenging his lose to Dejesus, then what about Leoanrd. It is the same isn't it? _________________________________________________________________ Duran lost his 1st fight after only 4 years..unlike the myth you all try to portry that he had all these fights before he lost anything. He was 31-0. Compare that too Roy Jones who went 15 years, with our losing a fight (except for DQ), and roy moved up just like Duran did. He moved up and fought James toney, who may not be a Sugar Ray leoanrd, but James toney at the time was regarded as the pound per pound best in the world. He was 44-0-2, had many great test under his belt, compare that to Sugar Ray at the time who was relativly green with only his fight vs Benetiz. :boxing: Toney had stopped nunn, and Barkley (this guy you all harp on is soo good that duran beat), beat mcCallum, littles,,,Roy beat this guy by 7pts on one card, 9 points on anther, and 11 points on the 3rd. Keep this in mind. Roy moved up to this seasoned peak Champion. Roy had not been seriouslyy tested yet. Toney is considered on almost every list as a top fighter all time pound per pound...and get this. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A FIGHTER THIS DOMINANT, PEAK, SEASONED, AND ROY HAVING MOVED UP TO HIM..... GET DOMINATED IN THIS WAY.. The fight was not close! Has Duran ever had a performance against a top fighter he faced, like that. Hint his record vs fighters of this level is 1-5, and the one he won, if one round was reversed Duran lost....Ohh duran was at welter for 2years too by the time he faced Leoanrd, Roy jumped up to face toney. So again help me understand what Duran has done which puts him above Roy. Duran did fight or win anything of consequence at 118 or 126. His weight class he did almost all his winning in was 135. You can try your best to say he went from 118-160, but the issue is where was he DOMINANT at, won titles at, and best the best at. That would be 135, 147... He did beat Moore and barkly at 154 and 160, but they were not the best. So you have a fighter that did what again...Compare that to Roy! What defenses did duran have at 147 or 154 or 160? Lets examine this again..Roy at 160 beat Benard Hopkins not a shot Hopkins.either both where relativley young in their career, so Roy did not have any experience advantage here, and roy was supposed to pull out of this fight due to a fractured right hand. he didn't and he won..Duran quit before in a fight at age 29. Roy beat at 168,,none other than James Toney. We already adddress toney.. Right there Roy has beaten 2 all time top fighers...Duran in his entire career he beat one, very closely and is only 1-2 vs that fighter At 175, roy wins not a WBO, or ibf, or abc title he wins the WBC title. He also gets a dQ vs Griffith in his toughest test. A fight in which he had just dropped griffith (in route to a 10-8 round at least since there was time left). Griffith was a very good fighter. No i will not try make him out to be some legendary dominant fighter, like duran fans try to make marcel, Kyobashi, Buchanon in an attempt to bolster durans weak lightweight resume. However in the rematch, Roy ko'd him in 1 round. 1 ROUND!!!!! Roy then stops a top world class fighter and champion Hill with a body punch.. Roy then unfies the light heavyweight title.. and beats many champions and future champions... At this point in his career he has had a long amateur career he had been a professional for 15 years, he has won titles in 3 divisions and has beaten 2 legends where he dominated them. He is still unbeaten by another fighter in the ring only a dq and he responded with a 1st round ko...There where no losses to fighters like Dejesus or laing. Roy is 33 years old. 50 fights.. No legit loses... Three titles in 3 different division where he did beat the best, and defended vs the best. Now he steps up an additional 20 pounds to beat a heavyweight champion. Not the best but a legitmate heavyweight fighter who is the champion. He also is outweighed by 23 pounds at the official weigh in. Keep in mind this is in addition too the fact that roy had to add 18 pounds not 5, 10, or 13 but add 18 pounds to meet a man that he still is outweight by 23 pounds at the weight in. This fighter is not 33 yrs old, with a record of 38-4-1 Not great but he clearly is not a pushover at heavyweight. Roy not only outboxed him, but in several rounds he took the fight to him, giving and taking with this man. Roy easily wins this fight. Roy at this time has won 4 titles, no one has ever came close to beating him except for the DQ that Roy had and avenged in 1 round. Roy is now 35 years old no loses, then he has to lose weight and do irreversable damage to his body by shedding not fat , but muscle to get back to 175. He barel pulls out the 1st fight with Tarver, but he clearly is not the roy we all know. We are talking about a man so supremly gifted that he played in a semi pro bball game,, flew back to the fight, and still whipped his opponent, never tired in a fight. Now all of a sudden he could not even move around the ring after 4 rounds, and still toughed it out to win the first fight. This was not roy and you never ever see roy again in the ring. He then gets his ass repeatedly kicked through out the rest of his career. You tell me how Duran stacks up against that.....1-5 vs the best he ever faced, moved up just like Duran. I am only holding Duran to fights up to age 34. Duran never successfully defended, unified, any title above 135. Help me understand. I am not talking about Mayweather or Leonard here, I am tallking about Roy Jones..

Comments (20)

mrlopez

Roy Jones Pound per pound was much better than Duran. Duran fans are simply blind!! I wont take anything away from RJJ because he WAS a very gifted and talented fighter....All of the things he has accomplished during his career will make him a 1st ballot Hall of Famer for sure.... BUT Duran is a legend, no one can or should question what he has done for himself, his country, and the sport of boxing. My thing is that Duran fought all the best fighters back then...He chose to move up/down in weight to get those big fights. His legacy is cemented for sure... As for RJJ, i didnt see him trying to fight the best guys, he never really went after the big fights under or above his division. Some thing that Duran did do.

17y ago

GJC

Well then, you really seem to be reaching into the deep end now. So, because you can't stay on track you have to go and exaggerate everything? Ok, so you think my stat was wrong. What is his reach then Pinkard? You'll certainly know down to the millimeter I'm sure. Anyway, I stick by my claim that Leonard's reach is 74". If it's wrong by one millimeter, shoot me. Yes, Jones did only have 12 title defenses of his LHW belt/s. A loss is not a defense in my book. So, call it 12 successful defenses. Don't get caught up on pettiness. I had also already mentioned his other title defenses at his other weights in the first post, so the stats are all there. Maybe you just didn't read them. The only difference we have on the Toney win is that I see it as different because it would be no different if say, Buchanan had moved up to 140 and then Duran moved up and beat him there instead. I don't see your problem with that. Must say I thought SRL reach was 74 too. Duran pretty much always gave 8-10 inches reach away moving up and mostly at lightweight too. Whereas I believe RJJ never suffered much of a reach disadvantage (often an advantage) Ruiz only had 4in on him. Reach is a big factor in boxing maybe we should go on reach for reach rather than pound for pound.? One thing I can't figure as well is the quoting of "hall of famers" There are lots of halls of fame some include such as Palomino, Cuevas and De Jesus. The 3 we are working off of are Bert Sugar's ESPN and The Ring yes? Duran is ranked 8 in Sugar's hall of 2002 and Jones is 88? Don't agree with Jones being that low, I know it is 2002 but Jones has lost 4 out of 11 fights since then I believe, so wouldn't fly up the poll based on results since. Duran is 5 on the Ring's hall of fame and is 6 in ESPN's Jones is 46 in ESPN, again Jones is too low. Again both great fighters and a lot of cherry picking of stats going on.

17y ago

GJC

Both great fighters, why the need to denigrate one fighter to show how good another is. I've been watching boxing a long time and enjoyed watching both. I think there is a habit of looking at statistics and deciding that people wern't good fighters simply because they rack up more than an acceptable amount of losses. Very easy to pad a record out. I remember Duran fighting and he was a great fighter no doubt as was RJJ. He lost to fighters he shouldn't have but then he never looked after himself as he should have done he also never ducked anyone. De Jesus was a hell of a fighter as was Buchanan, Palomino, Cuevas and Davey Moore. The last 4 I haven't seen mentioned in this debate. Even if you take out the SRL win out of Duran's record he is still an ATG. No one gave him a chance against Davey Moore who was the new bright young thing and Duran destroyed him. Could be that Moore never got to be an ATG because Duran ruined him? I think it is hard to judge who will beat who with the certainty that some use on here, personally I think if 2 all time greats within the same weight fight 10 times you will rarely get one of them 10-0. I reckon that in a boxers entire career they will only be 100% in half a dozen fights. That is the reason why I measure all time greatness on the length of time that a fighter was competing at the top, on that score both qualify. You can always work out who was the best on paper but boxing takes place on canvas. Anyhow that's my 1st post so fire away.

17y ago

wpink1

So Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd May are bitches?? they sure have accomplished alot more and are better fighters than miguel cotto and you can argue duran as well.. shit i love duran but he is just a tad bit overrated.. brandish or wpink whoever it is made a pretty decent thread.. he layed down value arguments making his case for jones being better than duran.. you dont have to discredit either fighter, just look at their careers and voice your opinion Thanks Cy That is all I wanted to do is to lay down valid points for me considering jones above Duran,not just say it but compare eachs points factually and objectively then make a subjective decision on who I believe is best, and engage duran fans in a logical well thought out debate. However it seems that Duran fans are incapable to providing logical valid reasons duran should be ranked above Jones. Look through the responses you hear onlly a bare miminum of educated respones. Most range from he should be because he is duran. Others offer the same old weak excuses attempting to minimize every lose and ignore them, but hype up Jones loses after he ws 35 yrs old and destroyed his body. Some havve tried to no avial to hype up the horrible resume he had at lightweight. They have had the nerve to say Kyobashi, or marcel deserve to be considered great fighters up there with say hopins hearns or Hagler. One person even said duran beat a great fighter by the name is ishamatu. Who is he and look at his record. somethng like 25-10-4. What a bum! Now we have Benny trying to get people to credit duran for having 5 fights at 118 when he was 16 years old.. Last I remember we are talking about fightrs range in weight classes they participatd in & won a title in. Did duran win even the neighborhood title at 118? Great attempt. Next thing we see is someone trying to say the Jones did not move up and beat toney, who was the Super middle wieght champion. this so called expert says that because a person has height and reach equalities they are the same in size. I pointed out Ray leoanrd and Joe Frazier have similar reach and height sized...hmmmm are they the same. He said they started at the same weight class so it should no be considered moving up. Hmmm Dlh and Mayweather both started at Super featherweight, I do recall at 154 the tone of the fight was Mayweather moving up to fight DlH. I really suggest this Duran fan needs to research before debating with me.

17y ago

Brandish you can try to degrade any fighter to fit your BS and make Floyd look better, but any real fan knows Duran is better p4p than RJJ and Floyd bitch ass!!!!!!!!!!! So Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd May are bitches?? they sure have accomplished alot more and are better fighters than miguel cotto and you can argue duran as well.. shit i love duran but he is just a tad bit overrated.. brandish or wpink whoever it is made a pretty decent thread.. he layed down value arguments making his case for jones being better than duran.. you dont have to discredit either fighter, just look at their careers and voice your opinion

17y ago

BennyST

technically you may have a point, but then there really is not such a thing as a logicical , credible etc...Pound per pound all time list is there then? It is subjective.. No, of course there isn't. That's why I don't care where you or Brandish have Jones or Duran. The only thing I see as being wrong is the way you compare them or glaring deficiencies in the argument. You can't argue definite facts with something so subjective but you can at least try to compare things that are reasonably similar and also try to keep it the same for one fighter as another. Take Brandish's absurd view that because Jones had more defenses that that automatically makes him better. No, that can't be used as a rational point. Hence me trying to explain the differences in the era's and the way title fights are now fought. More belts, more organisations, more champions, more title fights et cetera et cetera. Not only that, but then he goes and says that Duran cannot be above Jones because he doesn't have as many title defenses, and yet Leonard doesn't have nearly the amount Duran had but he's also still higher? Do you see the absurdity of this argument? I don't know if he has Leonard above Jones but if he does then his own argument just goes straight down the drain, not that it hasn't already. Or, just because someone has lots of defenses and is undefeated and has won a title in more than one division that automatically makes him great. Where is Calzaghe on his list then? Anyway, you have Jones above Duran. That's great. Just as Brandish's top twenty ATG's is made up of only black fighters. Weird, but just opinion. I'm bored of arguing the same point over and over and over and getting the same crap thrown back at me without getting any further in this pointless conversation. Ciao.

17y ago

BennyST

What I and everyone on here knows is that every time you post a stat it is wrong. Ray did not have 74 inch reach, roy did not only have a total of 13 defenses (12successful) of his lightheavy title .. I already showed how stupid your refusal to acknowledge the roy moved up to beat toney, just like Duran moved up to beat leoanrd. I guess hmm since duran balloons up between fights to 180 we can say duran is a natural lightheavy according to you. Cuz you simply dont know boxing, that is for sure! Well then, you really seem to be reaching into the deep end now. So, because you can't stay on track you have to go and exaggerate everything? Ok, so you think my stat was wrong. What is his reach then Pinkard? You'll certainly know down to the millimeter I'm sure. Anyway, I stick by my claim that Leonard's reach is 74". If it's wrong by one millimeter, shoot me. Yes, Jones did only have 12 title defenses of his LHW belt/s. A loss is not a defense in my book. So, call it 12 successful defenses. Don't get caught up on pettiness. I had also already mentioned his other title defenses at his other weights in the first post, so the stats are all there. Maybe you just didn't read them. The only difference we have on the Toney win is that I see it as different because it would be no different if say, Buchanan had moved up to 140 and then Duran moved up and beat him there instead. I don't see your problem with that.

17y ago

wpink1

Oh god:pat:......Try reading it again Pinkard. Where is the glaring fallacy? I already said he had 12 defenses at LHW. I also already said that he one defense at middle and five defenses at SMW. What is making this easy? That you can't read and don't have a clue what I'm even talking about, or that whenever you don't feel like answering something you just bring up another point and ignore everything else? Yes, that would make things easy for you Pinkard. You're still off track here. You seem to think that I'm trying to make Duran look better than Jones. I'm not. You are not going to change your mind on anything, neither is Brandish, and I probably won't either. What I am trying to do is make you see that the comparing of someone from today's era who fought different people from different weights at different ages to another guy of an older era with vastly differing circumstances etc etc etc, is not feasible. I'm not trying to argue that Duran is better or higher. If you can find any post where I said such a thing or even alluded to such a thing then I'll drop it. Your argument does not work though, that's what I'm trying to say. Comparing wins and title defenses that were so different doesn't make sense, except in your mind, and Brandish's. technically you may have a point, but then there really is not such a thing as a logicical , credible etc...Pound per pound all time list is there then? It is subjective..

17y ago

wpink1

Well, it's certainly a good way to take it off the whole point of the actual conversation Pinkard. Bring up a whole new bunch of points that don't mean anything. I don't give a rats ass if you've boxed. So what? Do you expect to impress me with that little gem? You've watched a million tapes of your idol as well. You can see each little punch that Leonard lands where supposedly a million other people can't.....Great. I'm glad for you that you can. Maybe that's why you have Leonard winning the first fight. I must have missed all those punches. Obviously my boxing eye isn't as refined as yours. Obviously Leonard was doing things that just were too subtle for my philosophy of 'Whoever hits the other guy with cleaner, more damaging punches wins'. Obviously you saw Leonard doing some little tricky things in there that few others saw. Hey man, when you say Leonard beckoned Duran in and then fought off the ropes, that's not true. That's what Toney does. Leonard got pushed and bulled back into the ropes and then would fight off them. Big difference. You've boxed, you should know the difference. You don't think Leonard was a big welterweight? Well, that's certainly news to me because 5'10 with a 74" reach is pretty damn big in my book. You've boxed mate, you should know that. Anyway, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You've gone off on some weird tangent that has nothing to do with what we're even talking about and have been for the last couple of pages. I thought this was about Jones' wins vs Duran's wins. What does Leonard and his amateur pedigree and your glorified sparring sessions have to do with anything? What I and everyone on here knows is that every time you post a stat it is wrong. Ray did not have 74 inch reach, roy did not only have a total of 13 defenses (12successful) of his lightheavy title .. I already showed how stupid your refusal to acknowledge the roy moved up to beat toney, just like Duran moved up to beat leoanrd. I guess hmm since duran balloons up between fights to 180 we can say duran is a natural lightheavy according to you. As for your total degridation of what Ray did in the first fight, funny how the judges saw it the same way. If they reversed one round it would have been a another in a long list of Duran loses... Yes Duran forced Leoanrd back to the ropes, never said he didnt,, what i said is that Ray did nothing to try to avoid it from happening. Hmmm you know what we dont have to go very far Benny....to see when Ray Leoanrd DID try to avoid Duran bullying him into the ropes...Hmmm duran was not successful in doing it. Does nt take a rocket scientist to see the differnence, now does it? What other excuse you over there in Durannuttsville trying to create. I can only imagine whats next...Duran should be given a pass because ray arcel had the flu when he fought Hearns...hmmmmm something weak like this will come out I think Benny when people see how bad you looked in this latest go around, many will begin to question your boxing iq maybe you should band or something easy. Cuz you simply dont know boxing, that is for sure!

17y ago

BennyST

Just addressing a glaring fallacy in this..Roy had 17 defenses at Super middle and light heavy....12 alone at light heavy...Most of thesehmmmmm THE UNIFIED TITLE.MEANING ALL OF THEM.... Come on Benny....this is getting way too easy. I would be if I was defending a champion who ws 1-4 vs the best fighters of his era, and one does not measure up to Roy except in fasle mythical myth. Oh god:pat:......Try reading it again Pinkard. Where is the glaring fallacy? I already said he had 12 defenses at LHW. I also already said that he one defense at middle and five defenses at SMW. What is making this easy? That you can't read and don't have a clue what I'm even talking about, or that whenever you don't feel like answering something you just bring up another point and ignore everything else? Yes, that would make things easy for you Pinkard. You're still off track here. You seem to think that I'm trying to make Duran look better than Jones. I'm not. You are not going to change your mind on anything, neither is Brandish, and I probably won't either. What I am trying to do is make you see that the comparing of someone from today's era who fought different people from different weights at different ages to another guy of an older era with vastly differing circumstances etc etc etc, is not feasible. I'm not trying to argue that Duran is better or higher. If you can find any post where I said such a thing or even alluded to such a thing then I'll drop it. Your argument does not work though, that's what I'm trying to say. Comparing wins and title defenses that were so different doesn't make sense, except in your mind, and Brandish's.

17y ago

BennyST

17y ago

wpink1

So, you're saying that Ray Leonard is better because he had one title defense at 168? I don't get it Brandish. He only had five defenses of his welter title, none of his JMW title, none of his MW title, and one defense against Duran or the robbery against Tommy Hearns, I don't know which. That's only six all up. How is it that you can use one argument for one guy but then another for someone else? All you're doing is showing that you can't be rational or unbiased. First you say Duran can't be better than someone with more title defenses, but then you'll take it back and say that Leonard is better? Even if you look at Jones Jr, he only made the same amount of defenses as Duran of his natural, best weight class. He made 12 defenses of his WBC LHW title. He made other sporadic title defenses here and there ( I don't know how you got 22 title defenses all up?), which means nothing today anyway because they're all paper titles which don't have any significance. His one defense of the middleweight crown against Tate and the five defenses of the SMW title add more to his overall record but they are still just alphabet titles, which previously would not have ever even been for a title. See, you're mistaking a simple title defense today as being an amazing achievement. It's not, it's just how the organizations make more money off the fighters. That's why there are so many now. Duran had many fights (against good and bad fighters) in between all his title defenses, which if it was today would have added up to an All Time Lightweight title defense record. Again, they are incomparable to now. See, I don't hold all these absurd views that you do. I don't pretend that because Duran had more title defenses than one fighter that he's better because that's just not how it works. That means you should have Sven Ottke and Calzaghe really high up on your P4P rankings because they had a ton of title defenses, but he's shite is he not? You can't argue one way and then another for a different fighter just because you don't like him. Calzaghe did just as much statistical BS as Hopkins. Probably even more, but is he as good? No, he's not. According to you though, Calzaghe should definitely be higher than B-Hop. After all, he beat him while he was still prime (more or less as evidenced by his following dominant win over Pavlik), he had as many title defenses I think, and he also made a title defense of the LHW title he won, which Hopkins didn't do and he did it all undefeated. With the way you rank fighters he should be up with the top five easily. Why isn't he though Brandish? Just addressing a glaring fallacy in this..Roy had 17 defenses at Super middle and light heavy....12 alone at light heavy...Most of thesehmmmmm THE UNIFIED TITLE.MEANING ALL OF THEM.... Come on Benny....this is getting way too easy. So tell me Benny is a educated debate. how can we have come common manner in reviewing a persons greatness and making an attempt ( it is all subjective) to measure how a person stacks up to anothr person pound per pound. Sort of like language isnt it Words are really meaningless, unless you and I agree on what it means. We do this by accepting a norm of what the letter a means, then B so o down to Z. Then we do the same with words, then sentences, etc..... So why cant we do the same for measuring boxers such as Duran vs Jones Are you scared too? I would be if I was defending a champion who ws 1-4 vs the best fighters of his era, and one does not measure up to Roy except in fasle mythical myth.

17y ago

BennyST

I am still waiting for any duran fan to list the champions duran beat in his career. if he can match or equal roy jones jr then he wins if he cannot then he is ranked beneath him all time. you don't get ranked in the top ten with a record like duran's. Roy Jones Jr. (1988-2004) undefeated for 16 yearsas a pro has defeated 16 former and current world champions in his career. and had over 22 title defenses. besting 5 Hofers. Jorge Castro (WBA middleweight champion) Jorge Vaca (WBC welterweight champion) Bernanrd Hopkins (IBF Middleweight Champion) Thulani Malinga (WBC Super Middleweight Champion) James Toney (IBF Super Middleweight Champion) Vinnie Pazienza (WBA Light Middleweight Champion) Eric Lucas (WBC Super Middleweight Champion) Mike Mccallum (WBC Lightheavyweight Champion) Virgil Hill (WBA Lightheavyweight Champion) Lou De Valle (WBA Lightheavyweight Champion) Otis Grant (WBO Middleweight Champion) Reggie Johnson (IBF Lightheavyweight Champion) Julio Gonzalez (WBO Lightheavyweight Champion) Clinton Woods (IBF Lightheavy weight Champion) John Ruiz (WBA Heavyweight Champion) Antonio Tarver (WBC Lightheavyweight Champion) I know for a fact duran had only 12 title defenses and none outside of 135 how the heck is that great. reay leoanrd had at least one defence of his 168 title.:trink26: So, you're saying that Ray Leonard is better because he had one title defense at 168? I don't get it Brandish. He only had five defenses of his welter title, none of his JMW title, none of his MW title, and one defense against Duran or the robbery against Tommy Hearns, I don't know which. That's only six all up. How is it that you can use one argument for one guy but then another for someone else? All you're doing is showing that you can't be rational or unbiased. First you say Duran can't be better than someone with more title defenses, but then you'll take it back and say that Leonard is better? Even if you look at Jones Jr, he only made the same amount of defenses as Duran of his natural, best weight class. He made 12 defenses of his WBC LHW title. He made other sporadic title defenses here and there ( I don't know how you got 22 title defenses all up?), which means nothing today anyway because they're all paper titles which don't have any significance. His one defense of the middleweight crown against Tate and the five defenses of the SMW title add more to his overall record but they are still just alphabet titles, which previously would not have ever even been for a title. See, you're mistaking a simple title defense today as being an amazing achievement. It's not, it's just how the organizations make more money off the fighters. That's why there are so many now. Duran had many fights (against good and bad fighters) in between all his title defenses, which if it was today would have added up to an All Time Lightweight title defense record. Again, they are incomparable to now. See, I don't hold all these absurd views that you do. I don't pretend that because Duran had more title defenses than one fighter that he's better because that's just not how it works. That means you should have Sven Ottke and Calzaghe really high up on your P4P rankings because they had a ton of title defenses, but he's shite is he not? You can't argue one way and then another for a different fighter just because you don't like him. Calzaghe did just as much statistical BS as Hopkins. Probably even more, but is he as good? No, he's not. According to you though, Calzaghe should definitely be higher than B-Hop. After all, he beat him while he was still prime (more or less as evidenced by his following dominant win over Pavlik), he had as many title defenses I think, and he also made a title defense of the LHW title he won, which Hopkins didn't do and he did it all undefeated. With the way you rank fighters he should be up with the top five easily. Why isn't he though Brandish?

17y ago

wpink1

:lol1: "Partner"? Ok, seeing as though you know your stuff and I don't why is it that you didn't even actually answer the question. After all, this is all your debate. You're the one that come up with this baffling comparison and you're the one that was comparing the Leonard win for Duran to the Toney win for Jones. What I'm saying is that these are not comparable. Their whole careers are completely incomparable. Whether one of them is better P4P is irrelevant. It's opinion and if that's your opinion than that's just fine and dandy. I don't care. That's too hard to argue. However, wins and what they mean can be compared, if they are comparable. What is strange though is the way you compare them. You say that the win is the same because Toney was high on the P4P list and that Jones moved up to beat him, even though Jones was bigger and had been fighting in the same divisions and was the same age. The win is only comparable because they are both the biggest wins for each guy. That's it. Jones' biggest win=Toney. Duran's biggest win=Leonard. Yes, Duran had been at the welter limit for nearly two years. What's your point? He was still moving up from the super bantamweight limit, still a very small welterweight, still only 5'6, still with only a 66" reach, still facing a massive guy that started at welterweight that was much bigger and had a much longer reach and was much younger. He didn't grow bigger while he was at welter, apart from his stomach of course...or did he? :lol1: Srl was massive....:wow: No it is not always height and reach. Again I have shown you how SRl and Frazier have the same sze and reach pretty much, but guess what. Frazier outweights Leonard by 50 pounds. Trunk, but, legs, fist, shoulder, back.. etc... a lot goes in the a persos overall size, weight. you keep on goink back to duran at age 16 to try to justify something. What weight was Ray fighting at 16: Hmmm either 130 or 135. Ray started out in the pro's at roughly jr welter limit. Your attempted arguement For Duran at 118 hold no water. The only differnece is Duran got paid $2, for these fights with not trainers and these fights where when Duran was till developing as a man, no amateur career, thus this was his amateur career. Ray simply was fighting for free angling for a gold. No these fights do not go down on his resume at professional fights.however did Duran do anything of subtance at this weight...wasnt this age the same at Ray being an amateur. To go a step further, why didnt Duran if he was fighting so early as a profesional, why didn he fight better opposition earlier in his career than Ray Leonad did? Huh. The goal of these fights is to learn your trade, get experience and thus prepare you for good fighter, champions ship fighhts. Ray was fighting better opposition by the time he was in hi 14th fight. duran repeatedly fought bums..for various reasons. My point is Ray amateur career is comparable to durans first couple of years.Nothing relevant to what Duran did at 135, and Ray amateur career not relevant to his career at 147. Make what you want of it. Since when is being 24 vs 28 a benefit for the 24 year old, especially when the 24 year old was relativly new to the magnitude of ths fight. Come on your reaching.

17y ago

wpink1

:lol1: Yeah, because that's exactly how he fought against Duran isn't it? He lay on the ropes and beckoned Duran in? Really? We're not talking about Toney vs Jirov here Pinkard, we're talking about Duran vs Leonard. He used his jab but didn't land it throughout the whole fight and because Duran's own was negating his, and he only got pushed into the ropes or when he was getting pushed back by Duran coming forward. He never fought off the ropes. Leonard was no Toney/Mayweather. Hey, I've always wanted to ask you something. Which rounds did you have Leonard winning to give him the fight against Duran? You think he won the first fight after all, and I always wondered which rounds you gave him to think that he won it? again your false about that....Even cosell was asking out loud,,,"where is that great leoanrd jab" He used it in the 1st 5-7 rounds,,along with in the 5 & 6 rounds a great lead left hook to start off each round ( I pretty know each round by heart).... Ray never fought off the ropes are you freaking serious..Maybe you should go back and look at the fight..Maybe you should look at the great clip that ABC wide world of sports use to show (end of round 10) when Ray landed about 10 shots off of Duran when his back was on the ropes and the duran fired back.. Maybe you should look at rouds 8 and 9...Several times ray would land great punches and spin duran then duran simplly grab leoanrd and push him back into the ropes and on round Where Ray was winning, the Duran stole the round with some great work in the last 20 seconds. It was not leonard jab that Duran was slpping as Lenard did not use a jab,,,he did sometime have his left out feeling for him, but it was not snapping jab like the one he used vs Benetiz to drop him. What Ray did the worst I ahve ever seen and remarkably I cant beleive as good as he was, he through punches like this, and that was a terrible and wild looping right hand that Duran did dip under neath and get inside. It was amateurish. Keep in mind that in the first fight Ray saw what he was able to do in round 5-7, and guess what the 2nd fight was a copy of those 3 rounds only ray did much more dancing. In the those 3 rouds in the first fight, he didnt dance but he woul use lateral steps to avoid Durans bum rush, and land counters, including time when he and Duran traded hard left hooks (as was replayed in slow motion between rounds) and ray landed a second hook, stepped aside and duran could not push him into th ropes. I boxed before partner. I actuallly sparred very successfuly with Jimmie Matz..http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11760&cat=boxer. With head gear, we would have some very good sparring sessions. I know the sport, was around it for 10 years in the gym. I know what to look for, little things, technique. Maybe you to do, I hope so. However I have every sugar ray Tape except for a full fight version of Ranzany and Randy Shields. Have his olympics fights, and many other amateur fights, including his great fight with Bruce Curry in texas. Trust me Leonard fought off the rope great in that fight. What gets lost is that most peopel where not prepared to see ray in that position, thus many rounds that where given to Duran was simpy because he was the aggressor and it was Durans style. Duran did not force Ray to fight that style, Ray never tried to mvoe and Duran cut him off. What Ray did like cotto did, was mvoe directly back into the ropes, great job by Duran forcing this to happen, but Tell me Benny. leonard who showed great movment from the olympics to hagler, could not even side step the bum rush to go back at an angle which is the first thing they teach you. Never come straight back, you get out or go back at an angle. Instead of me telling you what rounds I had for Ray...hmmm 1- 5-6-7 10-14-15 and either 11 or 12 I dont remember. Go to you tube or your dvd's and review for yourself. No matter how you score it, it was a close great great fight, and please keep you eye on both fighters and the work Ray did when his back was on the ropes...

17y ago

BennyST

17y ago

wpink1

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add in that Jones had actually fought about his last four or so fights before the Toney fight at the super middle-weight limit apart from one middleweight defense against Tate. Not really a comparable win is it Pinkard? Two prime guys in the same division, at the same age, and nearly the same size. Jones was bigger as previously mentioned. So, how is it the same? If you're going to come back with a nine page essay with pointless stats and figures that don't mean anything, don't bother. It's all pretty simple logic really. Oh I Know Roy fought several fights at the middleweight division before toney. Hmmm How many fghts did Duran fight at welter before leonard hmmmm 10 was it? How many years was he at welter 3 yrs was it? ...check your facts.mate Benny I know my stuff, partner....when you gonna learn.

17y ago

wpink1

:lol1: I see you're resorting to some intelligent insults. Are you getting a bit angry Pinkard?:burnup: No, I just looked at his videos of his old fights, there is nothing you told me about Leonard that I didn't already know mate. Now, while you're getting frustrated it seems that you forget to even understand what I'm trying to say. Obviously you're getting a bit hot under the collar. You say that Jones moving up to fight Toney is the same as Duran moving up to fight Leonard as if it's a comparable feat. That's what you said mate. was 44-0-2, and just like Duran, Roy moved up to face him. Now, I pointed out the big flaw in this thinking, which is that those two both started at the same weight division, they both moved up to the same weight divisions across their careers, both were the same age, but, Jones was bigger than Toney. It's you that thinks it is a comparable win, hence the reason you're comparing it. It's not at all comparable. Duran started at Super Bantamweight and was only 5'6 and had a reach of 66. Leonard started at 147, was five foot ten and had a 74" reach. How is this the same as Jones moving up to fight someone that he is bigger than and started in the same division as? Poor Pinkard. Mate, can't you see that it's not comparable? I'm not trying to say one guy is even better than the other. That's what you're doing. As many have already pointed out here, greater minds than you and I, these two are incomparable. Their wins aren't the same, they did vastly different things at different times in different era's. But, hey, if you think I'm the one making a fool out of myself then you just keep plowing on with your interesting logic.:fing02: Forget the pathetic name-calling mate, it makes you look like a twelve year old kid. Your right about the name calling However, your way off in your comparisons. What you leave out, amazingly is that at age 16 when duran had is 5 fights at 118, he was simply just filling out. He did not have any meaning ful career there, and in real honestly Roy amateur career was more valuable, more intense etc...than these 5 fights. I can not believe your on here justifying his 5 fights at 118. If you want to go there to bollster the Duran myth, then go ahead. The issue is not where a fighter speant a couple of fights at, it is where did the fighter spend his first meaning time at and win a title, and then where was the last location they won a title. Yeh sure we can count divisions that fighters fought in, but do we give Sugar ray credit for 175? No he lost. So people may point to the heroic attempt, but when comparing him to othrs the buck stops at 160. he had no meaningul time spent or titles at 175. Ali fought below the heavyweight limit several times.....Did you know Roy fought several fights weighing in at jr middle limit, however no one says roy was a jr middle, his body of work and where he was first relevant at was middleweight. This debate is going no where. I am not here to try to change anyone's mind about who is better. All i have done on here is try to get people to have a debate where they lay out in an intelligent manner why Duran with their facts, vs Why Jones. I have read some of your post before, you generally have very good posts You should realize, if you look closelly at all my post including my comparison between Ray and Duran where I had them relativley even, except for quality of opposition... that I am objective about duran. All, i repeat all i am doing is saying to Duran fans.... If you truly believe not simply acccept or blindly follow some peopel that Duran is a top 5 pound per pound, I am asking those who say he is, and that he should be ranked ahead of jones, to take each persons career. Define what you believe a top 5 pound per pound fightr looks like, and pleae some commonly accepted measurements, like wins, defenses, titles, quality of opposition, etc.... and then apply these measurments across the board to all fighters objectively with out bias. In this case we are talking about Jones vs Duran. I did twice before, I had Duran beating Mayweather, and had him equal to SRL. I think that shows me being objective. I will say Leonard had better opposition, and beats duran head to head 9 out of 10 times if they fought, and I no duran was not shot when they fought the 2nd time. However i realize that Duran was not as dominant at welter as he was at lightweight and yes that size jump does matter. I know this. However Benny every fighter has to deal with this, not just duran. If we give duran a pass, then should we not do the same for Leonard especially since he was retired, or Jones he moved up? See my point. Duran is a great great fighter a top fighter. My question in all this, is to duran fans...lay it out in a quantitative manner, like I did for Ray and now for Roy.

17y ago

BennyST

17y ago

BennyST

Never did he employ the lay on the ropes beckon duran in to war on the inside. He always worked behind a jab, but in this fight, he only use his jab rounds 1 5,6,7. I really dont know what Benny's stupid unthought point was.. :lol1: Yeah, because that's exactly how he fought against Duran isn't it? He lay on the ropes and beckoned Duran in? Really? We're not talking about Toney vs Jirov here Pinkard, we're talking about Duran vs Leonard. He used his jab but didn't land it throughout the whole fight and because Duran's own was negating his, and he only got pushed into the ropes or when he was getting pushed back by Duran coming forward. He never fought off the ropes. Leonard was no Toney/Mayweather. Hey, I've always wanted to ask you something. Which rounds did you have Leonard winning to give him the fight against Duran? You think he won the first fight after all, and I always wondered which rounds you gave him to think that he won it?

17y ago