Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

Only crazy people have him ranked top 20 he was trash

** Ketchell did fight Langford as a teaser to their title fight. Unfortunately Ketchell is shot in the back months later and adios title match. I had some Ketchell middleweight fights on DVD he was a very good fighter who's career would have been much better had he not been shot, I lost the DVD though which has annoyed me lol.

because old fighters are overrated as all fuc'k???......

I'm pretty sure Tyson will end up being in the hall of fame. He isn't eligible yet but he will probably be inducted soon. McVea, Willard and Sharkey are listed there as old timers, those who had an impact on boxing and helped make the sport what it is today. If he stays out of trouble He'll get in no later than his second year of eligability in my opinion. Tyson is an icon, no way they keep him out.

what in the hell am I supposed to make of this fight? Whos telling the truth? and why are old time fighters like McVea, Jess Willard and Jack Sharkey in the Hall of Fame, while someone like Tyson WONT be in the HOF? I'm pretty sure Tyson will end up being in the hall of fame. He isn't eligible yet but he will probably be inducted soon. McVea, Willard and Sharkey are listed there as old timers, those who had an impact on boxing and helped make the sport what it is today.

** Ketchell did fight Langford as a teaser to their title fight. Unfortunately Ketchell is shot in the back months later and adios title match. Any info on why the first fight wasn't a sanctioned title fight? Langford also fights Walcott in what is supposed to be a defense of Walcott's welt title, but historians ain't accepting it as a title fight, supposedly because of the weights. Since it's recorded as a draw, there is little impetus to go further, though one could hope for a change in status for the future. I couldn't find a record of the weights, but if you don't meet the contracted weight, its not a title fight. That said, I hadn't realized that fight was supposed to be a title fight. As to how Johnson gets a title fight, he was better established as a heavy than Langford at the time and found some backing that met Burn's guarantee for the fight, the right place at the right time kind of thing. Sorta like McNeely getting the call for Tyson's post prison debut. I will respectfully disagree here. Johnson had been chasing a title shot before Burns had ever become champion and followed Tommy halfway around the world to get one. I think it was hardly a being in the right place at the right time sort of thing. Burns had agreed to meet Langford before Johnson, but Langford couldn't raise the money in France before Burns sets sail in his world title defense tour. Meanwhile, Johnson is in England, gets some backing with the official Brit boxing org with a supposed signed contract to make Langford his first defense in England if he beats Burns. Fortified, Johnson sails to catch Burns in Australia where Burns reportedly raises his guarantee. Miraculously, Johnson finds a new manager to put him over the top and fight made. Johnson renegs on his promise to defend against Langford, stiffs his new manager after a row over money, and sails to Vancouver for his homecoming. :hail: Johnson may not have been able to stay in every "white" hotel, but he does stay in many "white" hotels as he tested and found the ones which would accept him. In fact, he famously busts the color line at the biggest cathouse in the US which was nothing but a private men's hotel for the wealthy. I think we can both agree that that had more to do with money, than equality. Good stuff, my man. I respect your knowledge even if I don't agree with it all.

I have read a few books on Johnson and seen some of his fights, I don't really have a top 10 heavyweight list how are we supposed to judge him fairly compared to other more recent fighters the rules were different which has an effect on style but there is also to little footage to compare him with say Ali who's fights are very easy to get hold of, I have read a lot of reports about fights in the past and then found after watching them my self i have a different view on it. So although books, news papers of the time, first hand reports and video clips give us a good incite into fighters of that time we cant fully judge them imo.no one actually agreed with one another in that time anyway. I mean, look at this. Atlanta Constitution reported a win for Jeannette, after he was given three minutes to recover from a low blow in the first round, Trenton Evening Times felt the blow in the first round wasn't a foul at all, but a blow to the pit of the stomach, and that in fact Johnson beat Jeannette twice that evening, once by knockout, the other time on points. Report carried in the Calgary Daily Herald supported the foul having been committed in round 1 and said Jeannette outpointed and outpunched the bigger man.what in the hell am I supposed to make of this fight? Whos telling the truth? and why are old time fighters like McVea, Jess Willard and Jack Sharkey in the Hall of Fame, while someone like Tyson WONT be in the HOF? Who are the best "prime heavies" Johnson beats should be the question and answer. Those that know also know the list to be fairly undistinguished: Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, Black Bill, Frank Childs, Sandy Ferguson, and of course Tommy Burns who was the shortest and 2nd lightest heavyweight champ in history, more on the scale of a smallish LH. thats what I try to go by too.Seems to me like you are trying to persuade that Johnson wasn't a top 10 great heavyweight rather than learn about Johnson( which would be best). That's why i had to call it a day. Ive learned about Johnson. This discussion is about if Johnson is a top ten heavyweight or not. what else do you want me to talk about? I threw out ten names that I think should be above Johnson, and so far only one person has responded to that(thanks JAB).

Just for arguments sake, if what you say is true then how did he ever get a title shot? Wouldn't he have been ignored like so many other worthy black fighters? And why if Langford was so adored was he able to fight the best fighters of the day, yet never fight for a title at any weight? ** Ketchell did fight Langford as a teaser to their title fight. Unfortunately Ketchell is shot in the back months later and adios title match. Langford also fights Walcott in what is supposed to be a defense of Walcott's welt title, but historians ain't accepting it as a title fight, supposedly because of the weights. Since it's recorded as a draw, there is little impetus to go further, though one could hope for a change in status for the future. As to how Johnson gets a title fight, he was better established as a heavy than Langford at the time and found some backing that met Burn's guarantee for the fight, the right place at the right time kind of thing. Sorta like McNeely getting the call for Tyson's post prison debut. Burns had agreed to meet Langford before Johnson, but Langford couldn't raise the money in France before Burns sets sail in his world title defense tour. Meanwhile, Johnson is in England, gets some backing with the official Brit boxing org with a supposed signed contract to make Langford his first defense in England if he beats Burns. Fortified, Johnson sails to catch Burns in Australia where Burns reportedly raises his guarantee. Miraculously, Johnson finds a new manager to put him over the top and fight made. Johnson renegs on his promise to defend against Langford, stiffs his new manager after a row over money, and sails to Vancouver for his homecoming. Johnson may not have been able to stay in every "white" hotel, but he does stay in many "white" hotels as he tested and found the ones which would accept him. In fact, he famously busts the color line at the biggest cathouse in the US which was nothing but a private men's hotel for the wealthy.

top10? top 5!

seriously, makes no sense. Ive seen people put him in the top 10 best heavyweights list, but for what? the guy was fighting guys that weighed 160 naturally, which would pretty much be the equivilant of Welterweights nowadays. Johnson fought maybe 2 or 3 guys that weighed 200lbs+ in his title defences, one of them being a loss. and the guys style? it was basically a better version of John Ruiz, and Im not joking at all. I know the fights were longer and everything, but mostly he did that sort of thing because he 220lbs and he could just lean on guys that weighed about 50 or 60 pounds less than him. I dont mean to put him down, but if someone like Tyson would have knocked out Roy Jones no one wouldve given him any credit, despite the fact that Jones is one of the greatest p4p fighters and middleweight/light heavyweights of all time...If you wouldnt give Tyson credit for that, why would you give credit to Johnson for knocking out lesser middleweights? I dont mean to put him down so badly, but I have a hard time believing that there arent 10 heavyweights that have done more than Jack Johnson has. so why would someone ever rate Jack Johnson in the top 10 best heavies? he was good for his day, obviously any modern heavyweight would beat his ass even todays weak ass division.

I have read a few books on Johnson and seen some of his fights, I don't really have a top 10 heavyweight list how are we supposed to judge him fairly compared to other more recent fighters the rules were different which has an effect on style but there is also to little footage to compare him with say Ali who's fights are very easy to get hold of, I have read a lot of reports about fights in the past and then found after watching them my self i have a different view on it. So although books, news papers of the time, first hand reports and video clips give us a good incite into fighters of that time we cant fully judge them imo. Personaly, I think it takes a whole lot of work ranking fighters for the reasons you named. It can be done though thru the type of research you talked about. Thing is to remember that you are not comparing fighters head to head, but accomplishments. when you do that there are a lot of things to take into consideration such as same day/day before weigh ins. 4oz/10oz gloves. 15 rounds/12 rounds. 1 title/4 titles. 8 weight classes/17 weight classes. The number of pro fighters during the era. The money fighters made and make. How often fighters fought. competition. Nutrition then/nutrition now. Medical science, etc., etc., etc. And when doing this you still have to remember its subjective. What might be an important thing to you may not be nearly as important to someone else. There is no exact science to it. Just try to cover all the bases and keep an open mind. And after you have done all that, I can promise there will still be plenty of people to ridicule your list. Thats just how it is. :damnit:

Jack Johnson not a top 10 heavy??? The man is a top FIVE all time best heavyweight. I dont want to get to in depth with Jack's great career but I do want to address some peoples disrespect saying Jack dodged black fighters. Jack didn't dodge anyone he didn't fight Langford because the public didn't want it. Two black fighters didn't sell that well back in the day. Look at pictures of the Jefferies fight compared to some of Langford's fights. Langford fought infront of what 1000 people while the white fighters packed the joint. It was strictly money why these fights didnt happen and if you know anything about Jack you would know the man was fueled by money. I have read a few books on Johnson and seen some of his fights, I don't really have a top 10 heavyweight list how are we supposed to judge him fairly compared to other more recent fighters the rules were different which has an effect on style but there is also to little footage to compare him with say Ali who's fights are very easy to get hold of, I have read a lot of reports about fights in the past and then found after watching them my self i have a different view on it. So although books, news papers of the time, first hand reports and video clips give us a good incite into fighters of that time we cant fully judge them imo.

Jack Johnson not a top 10 heavy??? The man is a top FIVE all time best heavyweight. I dont want to get to in depth with Jack's great career but I do want to address some peoples disrespect saying Jack dodged black fighters. Jack didn't dodge anyone he didn't fight Langford because the public didn't want it. Two black fighters didn't sell that well back in the day. Look at pictures of the Jefferies fight compared to some of Langford's fights. Langford fought infront of what 1000 people while the white fighters packed the joint. It was strictly money why these fights didnt happen and if you know anything about Jack you would know the man was fueled by money. None of this matters. As the best fighter in the world, you are expected to take on the best challengers. That said, I understand why he didn't fight them with the money issue and all. What bothers me is, knowing how hard he had it coming up with these same fighters he never threw one of them a bone or gave them the opportunity that he had worked so hard for. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Happy 1000th post Joe! Thanks Jab! I never thought I would stay here that long :lol1:

** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you. Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time. As you know fully well, sparring and actually getting in the ring for a pro fight are two different things. If a fighter doesn't fight in a real boxing match for 6 years, all of the sparring in the world is not going to prepare him for a professional fight. Happy 1000th post Joe!

** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you. Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time. As you know fully well, sparring and actually getting in the ring for a pro fight are two different things. If a fighter doesn't fight in a real boxing match for 6 years, all of the sparring in the world is not going to prepare him for a professional fight.

** It seems you were unduly influenced by a notorious play that many take as history, The Great White Hope, which in fact is a very loose adaptation of his life. Naturally, Hollywood comes calling as they love fictionalized history. Sorry my friend, but I have never seen the play or movie. all my information has been taken from books and historians. Fact is that Johnson's biggest problem was that he was ignored for most of his career. Few knew of or cared about him as he was not a compelling fighter, being more clown prince and hugs and kisses than man to man fighting like the public adored Sam Langford for. Oh, the Police Gazette ends up jumping on his bandwagon late in Jeffries career, but that's about it. Just for arguments sake, if what you say is true then how did he ever get a title shot? Wouldn't he have been ignored like so many other worthy black fighters? And why if Langford was so adored was he able to fight the best fighters of the day, yet never fight for a title at any weight? None of the stuff you mention starts until he comes back from Australia showing off his new title and trophy wife. Let's face facts here, he loved the attention, courted it, and of course had help from Jack London and such who whipped up the flames racial disharmony. This is irrelevant. It still happened and there still had to be enormous pressure whether anyone believes he brought it on himself. London just made things worse. If you look at his lifestyle post Burns, half of his friends were white. He moved easily around the country until his Mann Act indictment and had a cult popularity that gets buried under the blizzard of negative press. As a child growing up he played with white children, this doesn't mean there wasn't racism and prejudice through out his life. He moved easily around the country once he became champ because he had money. Even with all the money he spent and flaunted, he was never allowed to stay in a white hotel. And a cult following pales in comparison to the overwhelming majority. Having money changes a lot of things and of course he would have hangers on of all colors. That will never change. Who are the best "prime heavies" Johnson beats should be the question and answer. Those that know also know the list to be fairly undistinguished: Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, Black Bill, Frank Childs, Sandy Ferguson, and of course Tommy Burns who was the shortest and 2nd lightest heavyweight champ in history, more on the scale of a smallish LH. Almost any heavyweight champion in history can have this question asked about his career and be torn down. Fact is, he beat the best black fighters of the day and destroyed the heavyweight champion who was white. He then beat all the challengers that racist Americans cheered for right up till Willard. Burns was a great fighter, just not a great heavy. The others are good era names, but the quality CVs of Langford, Jeannette, and Wills of the same era are much greater. I agree. And I don't like the fact that after Johnson became champ he didn't give any deserving black fighter the same shot he was afforded, though I understand why. It's the Jeffries win that turns the trick and it's hard to believe that all these years later people can't put that fight into context of Jeffries attempting the impossible, something that has never been accomplished in heavyweight history, and likely boxing history, that of knocking off 6 yrs of rust, 100lbs of blubber and straight off the rocking chair to challenging an era great in his prime. Does this not tell you how much the public hated Johnson, that they would pin their hopes on a man with almost no chance? Because we both know Jeffries never wanted this fight but was basicly forced into it by public pressure and outcry that the greatest prize in sports wasn't held by a white man.

For your sake I hope you're joking about that. Jackson was old, sick and had not had a fight in six years before he fought Jeffries.Peter Jackson died only 4 years after that fight. Jeffries management knew exactly how that fight would turn as any other sane person would. To even suggest that it was more impressive than Liston beating Patterson is some of the most worst ignorance I've seen on this board. I also see how you disregarded all of the top black fighters Johnson beat as if only the Jeffries fight is why people think Johnson was great ** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you. Review my post above to break down the best prime heavies Johnson beat. Jackson went into semi retirement at his height, a draw with Corbett and commonwealth win over Slavin. Probably out of frustration, but who really knows? He was a big name and Jeffries just a novice with 7 fights. Yes, they were top quality names you seldom see on a novice fighter's record, but to think that Jeffries had this all knowing management that could keep up with such a noted world traveller as Jackson is just naive. Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time. Already pointed out his age, but for an infirm man on his deathbed as you make him out, he shows up very fit at 195 against a novice no matter how you slice it.

he was always under immense pressure from being detested by the majority, and many black as well, and regular death threats, ** It seems you were unduly influenced by a notorious play that many take as history, The Great White Hope, which in fact is a very loose adaptation of his life. Naturally, Hollywood comes calling as they love fictionalized history. Fact is that Johnson's biggest problem was that he was ignored for most of his career. Few knew of or cared about him as he was not a compelling fighter, being more clown prince and hugs and kisses than man to man fighting like the public adored Sam Langford for. Oh, the Police Gazette ends up jumping on his bandwagon late in Jeffries career, but that's about it. None of the stuff you mention starts until he comes back from Australia showing off his new title and trophy wife. Let's face facts here, he loved the attention, courted it, and of course had help from Jack London and such who whipped up the flames racial disharmony. If you look at his lifestyle post Burns, half of his friends were white. He moved easily around the country until his Mann Act indictment and had a cult popularity that gets buried under the blizzard of negative press. Who are the best "prime heavies" Johnson beats should be the question and answer. Those that know also know the list to be fairly undistinguished: Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, Black Bill, Frank Childs, Sandy Ferguson, and of course Tommy Burns who was the shortest and 2nd lightest heavyweight champ in history, more on the scale of a smallish LH. Burns was a great fighter, just not a great heavy. The others are good era names, but the quality CVs of Langford, Jeannette, and Wills of the same era are much greater. It's the Jeffries win that turns the trick and it's hard to believe that all these years later people can't put that fight into context of Jeffries attempting the impossible, something that has never been accomplished in heavyweight history, and likely boxing history, that of knocking off 6 yrs of rust, 100lbs of blubber and straight off the rocking chair to challenging an era great in his prime.