Julio Cesar Chavez GETS PISSED at larry merchant(after DLH bout)LMAO

With all do respect man, you are wrong. you won't name any of these fighters that Chavea was dodging or COULD have fought. He fought everyone he had to and beat them. You keep harping on this "tomato can" thing and I made a great point in that he beat the great one's too. I don't care how many tomato's he fought he beat the fighters he had to to lagitamize his legacy. It's obvious you have this thing against Chavez and don't want to give him his due and that's fine because it's your opinon. All I'm saying is, don't discredit his career becuase you think he failed to fight better opposition early on. Mexican fighters stay busy, that's what seperates them from every other fighter. Pinoy's are somewhat the same and it's a good strategy to take because you stay sharp. If Chavez lost when he fought the world champs then I would agree with you 100% but the fact he didn't negates any argument you may have against Chavez simply because he fought alot of inferior opponents. If that was the case, you could make the same argument for alot legendary fighters that had bloated up records. I can't repeat myself enough when I tell you he wasn't a brawler. You need to do your homework youngblood because I don't know how old you are but you need to rent, download, or anything to find some Chavez fights. He was a master technician in the ring, plain and simple. He could brawl but he also out boxed many an opponent. You don't get to beat the quallity of guys he did by simply being a brawler, sorry it doesn't happen. I just don't know what else to say, you don't appreciate Chavez and it's obvious and it's ok but oyur misinformed or just don't know. Chavez IMO would mop the floor with any welterweight champion of the past 15 years in his prime. He beats Trinidad, Vargas, Mosley, DLH, Cotto, Margarito, he beats them all. He would have problems with Mosley and DLH because of their boxing skill and speed but in his prime he overcomes that. Cotto, Trinidad, Vargas would get a beating at the hands of Chavez because they would stand in front of him and get knocked out or punished. you trying to make side points, points that I NEVER tried to negate, I only said he fought a lot of cans, I never said he dodged nobody nor that he didn't fight the best I just said he fought a lot of cans, right or wrong? that was the ONLY thing I said so when you try to make the point of "well he fought the best too and didn't duck no one" it doesn't hold any relevance because I never denied that, I gave him all his respect I HAVE said he fought the best BUT he fought a lot of cans, maybe to stay active and maybe to to do this or that but being 43-0 in only 4 years of fighting shows that you haven't exactly stepped up yet, he DID step up but c'mon man the guy got like 115 fights.. some impressive ass numbers and yes he EVENTUALLY fought the best but he lost to 2 of those bests that you name he just got a lucky break, we ALL know he lost to Meldrick Taylor and Sweet Pea, that is no debate, whoever can't see that must be crazy, I have seen Richard Steele let guys who were out on their feet and up at 8 (not 5 like Meldrick) continue when clearly glazed out, that call was BULLSHIT.. you may have a point about Chavez not being a full fledged brawler, Chavez KNEW how to Box just like Miguel Cotto knows but for the most part Miguel comes to fight, every punch he throws is for the knockout, he was basically Miguel Cotto times 1,000, better in all aspects but still for the most part brawled, he didn't hit and not get hit, he didn't revolve himself around taking the least amount of punishment, he was basically a brawler with skills like I said before, a brawler NOT because he didn't know how to Box but his initial approach to most fights was to bang out, he knew how to Box though and whenever needed you saw him Box, I may have went overboard by rendering him a full fledged brawler but he's still a brawler just one who ALSO knew how to Box, why you think guys like Sweet Pea and Sugar Ray Leonard and many more went through fights, intense battles and left without a scratch on their face? because when time came to fight they Boxed, they had a balance between the 2 but were more on the Boxer type so when shit got hectic they didn't sit there and brawl back with you they Boxed the shit out of you, Chavez didn't do that, he would return fire in the same way he was receiving it, he HAD skills, read cafe fully, he had skills but for the most part he brawled back with his opponents, even at 1 point Gatti had skills, a nice jab and such but overall when you think of Arturo Gatti what do you think of? I ain't never say he didn't fight the best and I didn't say he ducked anybody but ONLY that he fought MANY cans early on and padded his record, a fight every month against people he knew he could beat which like YOU yourself said he was just staying busy, granted, but it DOESN'T stop the fact that they were cans, you can't sit there and tell me that he didn't have a padded record when after 4 years he had more fights than some people have in their whole career's and it was against nobodies.. you seem to think I have some sort of "THING" against Chavez when I truthfully don't, I LIKE Chavez, I think he's an all time great and he was a tough motherfucker, I give him ALL his respect but I call it like I see it, he doesn't get any more respect than what his hands have shown me and THATS why I rate him so well but as in his opponents even you can admit that early on they were cans, I figured it was to stay busy because why every month? but it STILL doesn't stop them from being cans, I don't know what else to tell you about that if you can't understand my point.. even YOU said it at the end of your post (I put it in bold) Cotto and any Welterweight of our time would get a BEATING, not a Boxing lesson, not get out worked, either and BEATING or get KNOCKED OUT, you tell me what BOXER you know is known for anything more than his skills, by that I mean take someone like Sweet Pea right? you wouldn't say that about Sweet Pea, why? because he was a BOXER, I CAN say "BEATING" and "KNOCK OUT" if I'm talking about Aaron Pryor for instance who wasn't too far away from Julio, why? because he brawled like crazy and out of like 39 wins 35 I think were KO's.. THATS my point, the 1st thing you can say about Chavez when imaginarily put against the guys of our time is he would give them a beating or knock them out but what about a prime Sweet Pea? would you say the same? why you think Chavez has so many knockouts? he goes for the KO, he brawled but when it came time to showcase skills he showed that he can do that TOO, but he wont do it FIRST.. in a nut shell basically it was Plan A: Brawling, Plan B: Boxing and Plan C: let it all loose.. Chavez doesn't get disrespected on my end bro I know who Julio Cesar Chavez is, he won my father a lot of money back in the day BUT don't think I ain't going to call it like I see it, I'm not a fan of him nor any other Boxer, I'm a fan of BOXING so he gets his respect but he also gets the bad pointed out about him too.. however NOTHING against him overall as a fighter. 100

Yes I'm mad... for fuck's sake, act like a human being Julio. dude you're being over sensitive. :lol1: every boxer has their good/bad moments on interviews. grow up. :no:

I feel u but I never said there was anyone else to face, you can't tell me he was the ONLY person in his weight class with any name or rep, especially in that era where MAD people who became legends were coming up, there was people at least in the least bit better than 13-28-2 dogz, I'm just saying I probably can't name no names but I CAN tell you that no way does a division that was so BIG in the history of Boxing doesn't have worthy fighters, GOOD contenders whom posed a bigger challenge than all 43 of those cans he beat back to back, there had to be at least 5-10 guys that were better than those guys and he went 43 complete fights before he even stepped to someone in the 30 win column, as I STRESS to you I ain't saying he isn't great but his record WAS padded, he could have fought better opposition but instead for 43 fights he fought straight up bums.. the 49ers analogy you used is good but doesn't really go with the Chavez situation, see unlike the 49ers Chavez fought a batch of bad opposition when there were good guys out there too, he did that for 43 fights while the 49ers basically chewed up everybody, whoever was there got chewed up, Chavez didn't do that, not until later on that is and still he lost to most of his best opponents.. I see your logic though you basically saying Chavez was in a class of his own and when time came to step up against better competition he beat them too, all along no matter whom he faced he won and thats all that matters, in Football that could ride, in Boxing it wont because there are too many Boxers in the world in them divisions, he could have picked a better line up of guys, like 15-20 of those guys were on their pro debut's, you mean to tell me he couldn't pick nobody better? there must have been contenders that his team didn't pick to fight, they picked the lesser opponents to build a great record by numbers and THEN step up once the record is nice enough to floss.. the 49ers example would explain Cotto better than it would Chavez because Cotto from his 10th fight on has faced GOOD opposition, guys that been there and done that and he has beat them all and when it came time to step up he won BUT Chavez fought bums for 43 straight fights, he could have faced better guys whomever they would have been back then but his team opted not to and therefore padded his record, when he stepped up he won and he became a great but that doesn't erase all them cans he fought, unlike the in the 49ers analogy Chavez wasn't COMPLETELY surrounded by bums, I may not be able to name any guys but best believe that there were good guys back then Chavez just didn't fight them.. the guy was 43-0 only after 4 years of fighting, he was fighting COMPLETE cans when there were better guys out there unlike the 49ers who EVERY team other than them in their league was shitty so they just played and when better opposition came they still won, Chavez COULD have stepped up at 35-0 but his handlers didn't let him they preserved him if anything, it falls more in conjunction with Cotto, and yes Willy Lump Lump was from Menace II Society, I ain't think no one would catch that.. you know your shit fam but I'm just saying it really can't be disputed that Chavez fought these cans because he DID, I never said he didn't rise EVENTUALLY to become great I was just saying he fought a lot of cans which is true, he's also a brawler with semi skills, he knew how to waist less punches and land more on better locations on the body and face, he fought with precision and in close, he was able to take a GREAT deal of punches BUT he was still a brawler with smarts, I don't call him a brawler to make him seem like Mayorga but to point out the difference between him and guys like Mayorga whom FIGHT with no skills while Chavez FIGHTS with skills and ways to get his shit off without paying as much.. they BOTH brawlers accept Chavez knew how to think more he didn't just let himself go, something like Cotto in the Torres fight accept better than what Cotto did, smarter and probably stronger at that weight class.. I don't shit on Chavez I just call it like I see it, brawlers come forward at all times and Chavez did that, he didn't box from side to side and going backwards working behind a jab, he skillfully threw power shots and and went for hard bombs, THAT'S what I mean when I say JCC was a brawler, Arturo Gatti used to do the same shit he was just not even 5% of the fighter Chavez was, same style though.. 100 With all do respect man, you are wrong. you won't name any of these fighters that Chavea was dodging or COULD have fought. He fought everyone he had to and beat them. You keep harping on this "tomato can" thing and I made a great point in that he beat the great one's too. I don't care how many tomato's he fought he beat the fighters he had to to lagitamize his legacy. It's obvious you have this thing against Chavez and don't want to give him his due and that's fine because it's your opinon. All I'm saying is, don't discredit his career becuase you think he failed to fight better opposition early on. Mexican fighters stay busy, that's what seperates them from every other fighter. Pinoy's are somewhat the same and it's a good strategy to take because you stay sharp. If Chavez lost when he fought the world champs then I would agree with you 100% but the fact he didn't negates any argument you may have against Chavez simply because he fought alot of inferior opponents. If that was the case, you could make the same argument for alot legendary fighters that had bloated up records. I can't repeat myself enough when I tell you he wasn't a brawler. You need to do your homework youngblood because I don't know how old you are but you need to rent, download, or anything to find some Chavez fights. He was a master technician in the ring, plain and simple. He could brawl but he also out boxed many an opponent. You don't get to beat the quallity of guys he did by simply being a brawler, sorry it doesn't happen. I just don't know what else to say, you don't appreciate Chavez and it's obvious and it's ok but oyur misinformed or just don't know. Chavez IMO would mop the floor with any welterweight champion of the past 15 years in his prime. He beats Trinidad, Vargas, Mosley, DLH, Cotto, Margarito, he beats them all. He would have problems with Mosley and DLH because of their boxing skill and speed but in his prime he overcomes that. Cotto, Trinidad, Vargas would get a beating at the hands of Chavez because they would stand in front of him and get knocked out or punished.

I'm not sure about this, but I don't think Chavez had an ametur career did he? Some pros, including Cotto (since you used his name) had a very extensive amature background, some with over 100 fights. For someone who goes Pro directly, I think its OK to take easy competition to gain the much needed experience before stepping up. yea but what about Bernard Hopkins who went from the gym to the pro's? even lost his 1st fight at that just to show you how inexperienced he was, he didn't kill 43 cans in a row before he stepped up, he had 1 loss out of inexperience a draw with Segundo Mercado and a loss to Roy Jones Jr before he even reached a full 30-35 fights, he made history in 40+ fights defending a piece of the Middleweight crown and then eventually the undisputed Middleweight championship in a record 20 times, he did that with only 40+ fights and Chavez in 43 fights only managed to face bums.. thats NOT to say he spent his whole career doing that but A LOT of those guys, like at least 80, were cans if all good names he faced out of 115 fights didn't surpass 30, wasn't even a full 30, thats including his wins, losses and gift decisions, just his overall list of good names.. THATS all I'm saying, it's obvious he padded his record because he's now doing it with his son, you'll see the day Jr steps up he will be 40+0 guaranteed, thats a management thing dogz I ain't blaming Chavez but it still doesn't stop it from being true, Ferocity acts like I was hating on Chavez, why the fuck would I take so much time to clear the air if I didn't give 2 shits about him? I actually like homie but I'll even get on Sugar Ray Robinson if there is a good enough reason, I'm a fan of BOXING I only RESPECT the fighters so from now to the beginning of time a fighters name and glamour wont save him from the truth with me.. 100

Crillz, seriously. If i could school you the whole night about Chavez i would, unfortuntly i can't. But i had to say that you don't know shit about Chavez other then what you read at boxrec and you misinterpitiations of a great fighter. You say he is a bralwer, you've never seen him box, that Mario Martinez was the first good fighter he face. Man do you even know that Chavez was an under dog against Martinez and this is talking about the Mexican boxing fans. And all you seem to be getting at with your post (besides jealousy) is that you think Chavez is great because he had a long undefeated reign as a fighter and Champion. This might hurt a little more to know but another Mexican fighter names Ricardo "finito" Lopez retires undefeated. None of your heros have done this. jealousy? yo you sound stupid, why the fuck would I be jealous of Chavez? keep this shit clean dogz we talking like men.. you need to fall back thinking you could school me, I know who Ricardo "El Finito" Lopez is, true story he didn't lose, okay, wtf does that have to do with what I'm saying about Chavez? you STILL didn't negate my post, I never said Chavez wasn't great yo sharpen up on your comprehension skills, I said he was great I just said he fought a lot of cans, you act like he didn't yo wtf is wrong with you? I KNOW he fought GREAT fighters but stop feeling like you something I don't know because I KNOW about Chavez, if you would have been reading my posts and not snatch just 1 to display your ignorance you would have read that I used BoxRec to get EXACT names and records, I have seen him "BOX" but for the most part what was he known for being in? WARS! and a war in Boxing means BOTH guys are getting hit and not just 1 while the other is not, he was a come forward fighter whom didn't know the meaning of falling back, like Israel Vasquez he always presses the action and he wasn't a dumb dude, he was a brawler with skills but stop saying he wasn't a brawler when was always coming forward.. ain't no misinterpretation of nothing going on other than YOU misinterpretating my words, had you read my posts you will have read that I gave him all his respect, I bigged him up and since my very 1st post on here I spoke of his greatness, don't turn this into a Mexican rivalry shit because you don't know shit about "my heroes" aight, another thing how you know I don't know of Ricardo Lopez? did you ask me? stop coming in here feeling like you know something that I don't, I ain't no BoxRec head yo I WATCH fights but BoxRec just gave me the calculations I obviously can't remember, even the other homie who was going off the top of his head fucked up on the round that Meldrick Taylor lost in the rematch, why? because on your own you wont remember every fucking thing so I went to BoxRec and pulled the facts.. I don't care what you saying because you going around my point, did he fight 43 straight cans or what? did he surpass 30 big names out of 115 fights? answer that.. I ain't hating on dude, I like Mexicans and I like Chavez, he was a fucking crimson masked warrior, tough all the way to his hamstrings but don't sit here and pretend like what I'm saying is false cuz it ain't..

I feel u but I never said there was anyone else to face, you can't tell me he was the ONLY person in his weight class with any name or rep, especially in that era where MAD people who became legends were coming up, there was people at least in the least bit better than 13-28-2 dogz, I'm just saying I probably can't name no names but I CAN tell you that no way does a division that was so BIG in the history of Boxing doesn't have worthy fighters, GOOD contenders whom posed a bigger challenge than all 43 of those cans he beat back to back, there had to be at least 5-10 guys that were better than those guys and he went 43 complete fights before he even stepped to someone in the 30 win column, as I STRESS to you I ain't saying he isn't great but his record WAS padded, he could have fought better opposition but instead for 43 fights he fought straight up bums.. the 49ers analogy you used is good but doesn't really go with the Chavez situation, see unlike the 49ers Chavez fought a batch of bad opposition when there were good guys out there too, he did that for 43 fights while the 49ers basically chewed up everybody, whoever was there got chewed up, Chavez didn't do that, not until later on that is and still he lost to most of his best opponents.. I see your logic though you basically saying Chavez was in a class of his own and when time came to step up against better competition he beat them too, all along no matter whom he faced he won and thats all that matters, in Football that could ride, in Boxing it wont because there are too many Boxers in the world in them divisions, he could have picked a better line up of guys, like 15-20 of those guys were on their pro debut's, you mean to tell me he couldn't pick nobody better? there must have been contenders that his team didn't pick to fight, they picked the lesser opponents to build a great record by numbers and THEN step up once the record is nice enough to floss.. the 49ers example would explain Cotto better than it would Chavez because Cotto from his 10th fight on has faced GOOD opposition, guys that been there and done that and he has beat them all and when it came time to step up he won BUT Chavez fought bums for 43 straight fights, he could have faced better guys whomever they would have been back then but his team opted not to and therefore padded his record, when he stepped up he won and he became a great but that doesn't erase all them cans he fought, unlike the in the 49ers analogy Chavez wasn't COMPLETELY surrounded by bums, I may not be able to name any guys but best believe that there were good guys back then Chavez just didn't fight them.. the guy was 43-0 only after 4 years of fighting, he was fighting COMPLETE cans when there were better guys out there unlike the 49ers who EVERY team other than them in their league was shitty so they just played and when better opposition came they still won, Chavez COULD have stepped up at 35-0 but his handlers didn't let him they preserved him if anything, it falls more in conjunction with Cotto, and yes Willy Lump Lump was from Menace II Society, I ain't think no one would catch that.. you know your shit fam but I'm just saying it really can't be disputed that Chavez fought these cans because he DID, I never said he didn't rise EVENTUALLY to become great I was just saying he fought a lot of cans which is true, he's also a brawler with semi skills, he knew how to waist less punches and land more on better locations on the body and face, he fought with precision and in close, he was able to take a GREAT deal of punches BUT he was still a brawler with smarts, I don't call him a brawler to make him seem like Mayorga but to point out the difference between him and guys like Mayorga whom FIGHT with no skills while Chavez FIGHTS with skills and ways to get his shit off without paying as much.. they BOTH brawlers accept Chavez knew how to think more he didn't just let himself go, something like Cotto in the Torres fight accept better than what Cotto did, smarter and probably stronger at that weight class.. I don't shit on Chavez I just call it like I see it, brawlers come forward at all times and Chavez did that, he didn't box from side to side and going backwards working behind a jab, he skillfully threw power shots and and went for hard bombs, THAT'S what I mean when I say JCC was a brawler, Arturo Gatti used to do the same shit he was just not even 5% of the fighter Chavez was, same style though.. 100 I'm not sure about this, but I don't think Chavez had an ametur career did he? Some pros, including Cotto (since you used his name) had a very extensive amature background, some with over 100 fights. For someone who goes Pro directly, I think its OK to take easy competition to gain the much needed experience before stepping up.

haha Larry Merchant= no shame no class bum

I'll reply to you 1st since this wont take too long, cuauhtemoc1496 I'll holl at you a little later, that reply is going to take a minute.. YOU missing the point here, I NEVER once said Chavez didn't fight quality opponents, you can trace back to my VERY 1st post here and you'll see I ALWAYS gave him his props, what I said and what you ain't speaking on is that he fought a bunch of cans, guys whom were clearly not on his level, running threw Willy Lump Lump and Co. building a record that was against nobodies, fighting once every month whether because he needed the money or whatever, he fought his fights and he did win them but it was against tomato cans, even Marvin Hagler was at least 36-2-1 when he fought for a title, not a major but he fought an undefeated world champion for it, it's still 4 fights below what Chavez took and Marvin was beating the shit out of good guys, much like my comparison to Aaron Pryor in my other post THATS ducking, the guy is beating LEGIT contenders and is STILL avoided, he wasn't knocking out cans expecting to earn a title shot he beat legit dudes.. THATS what I meant, see Hagler and Chavez can't be compared because Chavez wasn't facing and beating guys that were 11-0-0, 29-0-0, 21-0-0, 23-0-0 and people with records of such, he fought his cans too don't get me wrong but for the most part he fought better competition, Chavez was facing guys that were more like 8-17-2, 4-11-1, 18-10-0, 22-18-1, 13-28-2 and fighters of such records, cans who got battered by nobodies, he spent his 1st 4 years doing that shit, he finally steps up and wins a belt at 43-0 with the ONLY stand out name is the guy he beat unlike Hagler whom if you know in depth shit about Boxing you could recognize a few guys, my point was no matter what is said there is always good opposition to fight, don't make it seem like he fought all 100+ fights at that time, he could have stepped it up even if only by a little but he spent the 1st 4 years of his career fighting bums, known fact.. I ain't saying he didn't eventually become great, that would be stupid, as you pointed out I NEVER took that away from him but he DID fight a lot of cans, am I wrong or am I right about that? just answer that.. Crillz, seriously. If i could school you the whole night about Chavez i would, unfortuntly i can't. But i had to say that you don't know shit about Chavez other then what you read at boxrec and you misinterpitiations of a great fighter. You say he is a bralwer, you've never seen him box, that Mario Martinez was the first good fighter he face. Man do you even know that Chavez was an under dog against Martinez and this is talking about the Mexican boxing fans. And all you seem to be getting at with your post (besides jealousy) is that you think Chavez is great because he had a long undefeated reign as a fighter and Champion. This might hurt a little more to know but another Mexican fighter names Ricardo "finito" Lopez retires undefeated. None of your heros have done this.

ha, couldnt he say parecio que renunciaste???why did he say rajaste...damn, have some common sense ray!!!!....

Ray was pissing his pants lol

i this recorded , the original footage, classic

Ok it sounded the other way but anyway that was funny as hell!!!!!!!!!

LOL LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ray was nervous as hell, I think he even called Chavez cabron after Chavez told him not to touch him. PERDON thas hwta he said

LOL LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ray was nervous as hell, I think he even called Chavez cabron after Chavez told him not to touch him.

You are right but you totally ignored my point about the SF49ers. I understand he didn't fight the greatest opposition at times but who was there at HIS time that he avoided?? Or failed to "step up and fight" as you put it?? It doens't matter that he fought tomato cans, what matters is he fought the best of his time and beat them. DLH was way past his prime and I would have loved to see a Chavez vs DLH or Chavez vs Trinidad in their prime but we can't control the clock. The only thing we can do as fans of a fighter is see what he did against his best opposition and chavez faired more than just well. He fought the best of his time and stayed busy, i can't fault the guy for that. Nice referrence to Willy lump lump (Boyz in Da Hood) I feel u but I never said there was anyone else to face, you can't tell me he was the ONLY person in his weight class with any name or rep, especially in that era where MAD people who became legends were coming up, there was people at least in the least bit better than 13-28-2 dogz, I'm just saying I probably can't name no names but I CAN tell you that no way does a division that was so BIG in the history of Boxing doesn't have worthy fighters, GOOD contenders whom posed a bigger challenge than all 43 of those cans he beat back to back, there had to be at least 5-10 guys that were better than those guys and he went 43 complete fights before he even stepped to someone in the 30 win column, as I STRESS to you I ain't saying he isn't great but his record WAS padded, he could have fought better opposition but instead for 43 fights he fought straight up bums.. the 49ers analogy you used is good but doesn't really go with the Chavez situation, see unlike the 49ers Chavez fought a batch of bad opposition when there were good guys out there too, he did that for 43 fights while the 49ers basically chewed up everybody, whoever was there got chewed up, Chavez didn't do that, not until later on that is and still he lost to most of his best opponents.. I see your logic though you basically saying Chavez was in a class of his own and when time came to step up against better competition he beat them too, all along no matter whom he faced he won and thats all that matters, in Football that could ride, in Boxing it wont because there are too many Boxers in the world in them divisions, he could have picked a better line up of guys, like 15-20 of those guys were on their pro debut's, you mean to tell me he couldn't pick nobody better? there must have been contenders that his team didn't pick to fight, they picked the lesser opponents to build a great record by numbers and THEN step up once the record is nice enough to floss.. the 49ers example would explain Cotto better than it would Chavez because Cotto from his 10th fight on has faced GOOD opposition, guys that been there and done that and he has beat them all and when it came time to step up he won BUT Chavez fought bums for 43 straight fights, he could have faced better guys whomever they would have been back then but his team opted not to and therefore padded his record, when he stepped up he won and he became a great but that doesn't erase all them cans he fought, unlike the in the 49ers analogy Chavez wasn't COMPLETELY surrounded by bums, I may not be able to name any guys but best believe that there were good guys back then Chavez just didn't fight them.. the guy was 43-0 only after 4 years of fighting, he was fighting COMPLETE cans when there were better guys out there unlike the 49ers who EVERY team other than them in their league was shitty so they just played and when better opposition came they still won, Chavez COULD have stepped up at 35-0 but his handlers didn't let him they preserved him if anything, it falls more in conjunction with Cotto, and yes Willy Lump Lump was from Menace II Society, I ain't think no one would catch that.. you know your shit fam but I'm just saying it really can't be disputed that Chavez fought these cans because he DID, I never said he didn't rise EVENTUALLY to become great I was just saying he fought a lot of cans which is true, he's also a brawler with semi skills, he knew how to waist less punches and land more on better locations on the body and face, he fought with precision and in close, he was able to take a GREAT deal of punches BUT he was still a brawler with smarts, I don't call him a brawler to make him seem like Mayorga but to point out the difference between him and guys like Mayorga whom FIGHT with no skills while Chavez FIGHTS with skills and ways to get his shit off without paying as much.. they BOTH brawlers accept Chavez knew how to think more he didn't just let himself go, something like Cotto in the Torres fight accept better than what Cotto did, smarter and probably stronger at that weight class.. I don't shit on Chavez I just call it like I see it, brawlers come forward at all times and Chavez did that, he didn't box from side to side and going backwards working behind a jab, he skillfully threw power shots and and went for hard bombs, THAT'S what I mean when I say JCC was a brawler, Arturo Gatti used to do the same shit he was just not even 5% of the fighter Chavez was, same style though.. 100

Damn your right, menace to society, my mind is failing me

You are right but you totally ignored my point about the SF49ers. I understand he didn't fight the greatest opposition at times but who was there at HIS time that he avoided?? Or failed to "step up and fight" as you put it?? It doens't matter that he fought tomato cans, what matters is he fought the best of his time and beat them. DLH was way past his prime and I would have loved to see a Chavez vs DLH or Chavez vs Trinidad in their prime but we can't control the clock. The only thing we can do as fans of a fighter is see what he did against his best opposition and chavez faired more than just well. He fought the best of his time and stayed busy, i can't fault the guy for that. Nice referrence to Willy lump lump (Boyz in Da Hood) MENACE II SOCIETY

now we talking,, see I could understand you throwing at me that whole nobody wanted to fight him shit if you talking about Aaron Pryor, he beat LEGITIMATE contenders and STILL had to deal with Ray Leonard OPENLY ducking him and moving up in weight, Aaron beat actual contenders not tomato cans with shitty records, going by Boxrec(because lets face it there's no other source to get such accurate or at least close to accurate information on fighters) in 1980 when Chavez started his career his opponents combined records for that whole year was 9-23-2 in 10 bouts, this is when he was doing that whole month to month fighting, in 81 the combined opponents record was 77-59-6 in 12 bouts, for 82 the combined records was 63-90-10 in 12 bouts, for 83 the combined opponents record was 56-38-3 in 7 bouts, in 84 the combined opponent records was 37-10-2 in 3 bouts with 33-1-2 being the record of the champion he faced, Mario Martinez, mind you up until he faced that champion he was fighting BUMS, NO contenders, no good names or at least other up and comers, no B or even C level guys he was facing guys that had more wins than losses, guys whom he was clearly going to beat and was only fighting them to build up his record, nobody to move him up the ranks and place him in title contention just beginners and people whom lost MAD times.. in the case of Aaron Pryor, I use him as an example because he was openly ducked by the champion whom vacated the belts and got out of dodge just not to face him, he was beating contenders, guys who had GOOD records and were ranked in contention not guys whom were either starting or unranked cans, he fought and beat 2 good undefeated fighter and then afterwards beat the shit out of Alexis Arguello, he couldn't be ducked because of the fighters whom he was facing, he was climbing the ranks and not fighting a bum every month just to stay busy, by his 24th fight Pryor was a world champion, Chavez however whom was around in Pryor's time in a smaller weight class was fighting the bums and the cans, he didn't qualify to fight anyone of stature, if he would have been beating legit contenders and going up the ranks there would have been no choice but for a title holder to eventually fight him, thats not what happened though, why? because Chavez was running threw bums, once he stepped up he beat some good names like the ones you menchined but when it came time to fight the cream of the crop he either lost of got a gift decision, he LOST to Taylor, he LOST to Pea and he lost to basically all of the NEXT level fighters on his resume, he beat Roger Mayweather twice, Juan LaPorte, Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor in the rematch, Frankie Randall once and lost twice, Greg Haugen, Hector Camacho, Joey Gamache and David Kamau just to name the stand out guys, he lost to the rest of the best on his resume and even a few bums towards the latter stage of his career.. I'm not saying he ain't a legend but he IS/WAS a brawler, look at the Taylor fight, just because you a brawler don't mean your punches can't have precision, what I mean by a brawler is that he couldn't be the Boxer in a fight, he was always pressing forward and throwing bombs not Boxing around the dangers just the way Gatti used to do, this is why I CLEARLY said he's BETTER than Gatti because they BOTH were brawlers it's just Chavez didn't get fucked up as much but it doesn't negate the truth of BOTH of them being brawlers at heart which is what I said.. also you compared Chavez to Trinidad in terms of being ducked, well YOUR example was only able to be ducked BUT so much, in fact as he stands today, the legend that he is he lost his 1st fight at 40-0 and this is after facing the best of the best and then improved to 42-2 35 KO's while Chavez was 43-0 when he FIRST even fought for a title meaning there's something he wasn't doing if YOUR very example was a world champion when he was in the 20+ win column.. my point is when you are facing the contenders and going up the ranks, now, before OR EVER it will only be so long before you get a shot as long as you fighting and beating contenders and moving up the ranks, if you fighting bums like the way Chavez did and now his son then you ain't going to get a shot because your credentials don't add up, this is why it took Chavez 43 fights against cans to finally get a shot because he wasn't beating legit contenders, had he been facing legit contenders no way would he have been fighting once every month, he would have been more battle tested and needed more rest in between fights as was happening once he won the belt, after that fight the most Chavez ever fought again in a year was 6 times ranging from bums to good guys and likewise but in the case of Trinidad and Pryor the reason THEY got shots earlier on and didn't even make it to 43 wins (not YET for Tito) is because they were going for the best not knocking out tomato cans then screaming out I'm being ducked.. you made some valid points but you STILL haven't said anything to negate my points, YES Chavez was a great but I said that too, YES he fought the best eventually but I said that too, YES if anything he lost to Sweet Pea but that wouldn't be a shame because of who Sweet Pea was but NO you can't sit here and tell me the reason he went 43-0 is because he was being ducked when he spent the 1st 4 years of his career fighting tomato cans every month, no matter what you say it's just not the truth.. I invite you to continue debating about this because you opened your browser up and called me out on why these people were jumping on me, you talked like you knew why and I just broke down everything you wrote in 1 big post, I'm curious to see what you can disagree with me on here with, everything I wrote is based on facts, I can't lie I'm curious to see what you have to say.. 100 I'll reply to you 1st since this wont take too long, cuauhtemoc1496 I'll holl at you a little later, that reply is going to take a minute.. YOU missing the point here, I NEVER once said Chavez didn't fight quality opponents, you can trace back to my VERY 1st post here and you'll see I ALWAYS gave him his props, what I said and what you ain't speaking on is that he fought a bunch of cans, guys whom were clearly not on his level, running threw Willy Lump Lump and Co. building a record that was against nobodies, fighting once every month whether because he needed the money or whatever, he fought his fights and he did win them but it was against tomato cans, even Marvin Hagler was at least 36-2-1 when he fought for a title, not a major but he fought an undefeated world champion for it, it's still 4 fights below what Chavez took and Marvin was beating the shit out of good guys, much like my comparison to Aaron Pryor in my other post THATS ducking, the guy is beating LEGIT contenders and is STILL avoided, he wasn't knocking out cans expecting to earn a title shot he beat legit dudes.. THATS what I meant, see Hagler and Chavez can't be compared because Chavez wasn't facing and beating guys that were 11-0-0, 29-0-0, 21-0-0, 23-0-0 and people with records of such, he fought his cans too don't get me wrong but for the most part he fought better competition, Chavez was facing guys that were more like 8-17-2, 4-11-1, 18-10-0, 22-18-1, 13-28-2 and fighters of such records, cans who got battered by nobodies, he spent his 1st 4 years doing that shit, he finally steps up and wins a belt at 43-0 with the ONLY stand out name is the guy he beat unlike Hagler whom if you know in depth shit about Boxing you could recognize a few guys, my point was no matter what is said there is always good opposition to fight, don't make it seem like he fought all 100+ fights at that time, he could have stepped it up even if only by a little but he spent the 1st 4 years of his career fighting bums, known fact.. I ain't saying he didn't eventually become great, that would be stupid, as you pointed out I NEVER took that away from him but he DID fight a lot of cans, am I wrong or am I right about that? just answer that.. You are right but you totally ignored my point about the SF49ers. I understand he didn't fight the greatest opposition at times but who was there at HIS time that he avoided?? Or failed to "step up and fight" as you put it?? It doens't matter that he fought tomato cans, what matters is he fought the best of his time and beat them. DLH was way past his prime and I would have loved to see a Chavez vs DLH or Chavez vs Trinidad in their prime but we can't control the clock. The only thing we can do as fans of a fighter is see what he did against his best opposition and chavez faired more than just well. He fought the best of his time and stayed busy, i can't fault the guy for that. Nice referrence to Willy lump lump (Boyz in Da Hood)

sure, but the tone of your post seems to indicate that you feel he shouldnt get the credit he gets for only fighting 30 or so contenders out of 100. how could it indicate such things when I myself never discredited him I only pointed the whole thing about the tomato cans which is true, he padded up his record real good but he also fought about 26-28 good fighters and lost to a few of them but overall he had a good run, it's just he DID pad his record and now he's doing it with his son so it shows that this is something he's aware that he's doing, Junior probably going to be like 25 with a 50-0 record which if you break down the opposition is ridiculous, thats all I'm saying, I see what you trying to say but I never once played Chavez or made him out to be nothing less than great.. 100

I actually like debating with you because I get very few people on here that actually know what they are talking about and even though I dissagree with you Iw ill say you stand by your opinion, as wrong as it may be. First off, I premissed the "ducking" argument by saying that Chavez was fighting once a month or two months because it's his phylosophy on how to stay in shape and sharp. He's doing it with his son and if you look at most Mexican fighters (from Mexico not Mexican American) they fight often and alot. It doesn't mean that they aren't great fighters or have "padded" records. I will give you an analogy, take the San Fransisco 49ers for example in the late 80's and early 90's. They were at the time in the worst division in football. Every year they would post up 14-2 records and critics would say that they were beating the worst teams in the NFL because they were in their own division. The reality of it is when the 49ers played the best teams in the NFL in the playoffs or SB, they won. So no matter how you want to criticise them they won when they had to. Same with Chavez, granted yes, he lost to DLH (he was way past his prime) Frankie Randal (which he came back and beat) and SweePea (which is considered one of the greatest pound4pound fighters ever). He BEAT Meldrick Taylor any way you look at it and he delivered such a beating to Taylor that Taylor never recovered, destroying them in a much anticipated rematch in less than 3 rounds.(if Im not mistaken on the rounds Im not looking anything up) All I'm trying to say is, Chavez fought everyone he could of his time and some he should have never fought when he was past his prime. You can't fault him for beating everyone he was supposed to beat even if he fought alot of "cans" as you call them. He never ducked anyone and was one of the greatest fighters ever in his weight class. It's kind of like people that argue that Cotto is lucky to have come in when he did because he never got to see DLH, Sugar Shane, Trinidad, Vargas or any of the other great welters in their prime. He came just a tad late and thats why he's winning. I can't fault him for that can I?? As far as Chavez being a brawler, you are so wrong. A brawler is a guy who can't do anything BUT brawl. Chavez had the ability to brawl as I stated in my first post but he was much more. Frankie Randall who was called the "Surgeon" said he never fought a more technically sound fighter than Chavez EVER in his career. Chavez hit hard and had a great chin but that's not why he won. He won because he was well taught and you can see the same in his son. Chavez was a technical fighter who was tough, hard hitting and could take a hell of a punch and so therefore most people think he was just a brawler like Gattis or Marvelous Marvin. On your point of why it took Chavez 43 fights to get a shot at the title, that's easy. Same reason it took Hagler over 40 titles and Sugar ray Leonard a little over 20. It's called managing, or miss-managing I should say. See, boxing isn't like football or basketball or any other sport that is more formated or organized. In boxing it's all about politics and the coruption of people high up. Some fighters get shots right away and some have to wait in line unfairly. It is what it is and Chavez was a poor street kid from a 3rd world country that didn't know anything about the biz but just how to fight. He was poorly managed up untilt he end of his career and ended up loosing all of his money to King and the Mexican government. The guy could barely read and write for God's sake. I hate to say this but that goes for alot of Mexican fighters because of the corruption in Mexico as well as lack of proper representation here in the U.S. question, was Chavez ducked or was he doing his philosophy on staying sharp by fighting these cans once or twice a month? I'm confused because I don't know if you realized it but you claimed even a 3rd thing, bad management. I understand what you saying but what I'm saying is more about the opposition, I can see how Chavez had bad management like you said, that actually made a lot of sense, it is true but even still it ain't like Chavez never got his shot, once he got it which was only really relatively 4 years after his pro career started and all that fight every month shit was deaded once he got the shot, as long as he was fighting cans he was fighting 12 and 13 times a year but once he stepped up the most people he fought in a year afterwards was 6, there was no longer 12 fights in a year once he stepped up and many of those 6 or less fights in the coming years were against cans too, he did that to build his resume and also to stay active and he wasn't going to be able to do that by facing top dudes, you could tell his shot came late NOT because people were ducking him but to pad his record against chumps and stay busy because he's doing the same exact shit with his son, if they were trying to milk him for every dollar they could get from him they WOULD have thrown him to the sharks and made BIG money fights once he was in his 30+ win column, don't you think? they would have made the most money they could off him if they were trying to fuck him over don't you think so? in order to do that he would have had to face the best but all along until that title shot flew threw he was facing bums, the management argument makes sense but it clearly wasn't the issue, he wouldn't be doing it with his son if when he himself was going threw it he felt it was bad management, he would cut that shit out and not allow for his son to go threw the same shit but no, instead his son is 30+ -0 with mad knockouts against bums, at this stage Arturo Gatti would have been a BIG step up for him so you can imagine the kind of guys he is facing.. you miss my point about Chavez being a brawler, he's a smart brawler, he can't out box you but he could out bang you, El Chapo will say that because of the way Chavez put his punches together, he didn't just waist his shots BUT much like Cotto at times he is a precision puncher, he hits where it hurts in combos of 3 and 4 and has a granite chin to go with it, he had skills but for the most part he was a brawler because he would sit there and bang with his opponents, he may not take 3 for his every 1 punch but best believe he's taking something back because he didn't Box, he fought smart, he used to bang away it's just his mug was solid and he took whatever was thrown at him and gave twice as much back and he didn't waist his shots neither but the way he went about fighting, the pressure first format that he had where he would come in and bang away render him a brawler, just because you a brawler doesn't mean you have to be stupid or have to be 1 dimensional, there are different kinds of brawlers and Chavez was a precise and intelligent brawler he knew how to NOT waist punches yet constantly press the fight in brawler fashion.. that was Chavez. see Chavez fought the chumps, Hagler didn't, he fought some cans but his whole resume up until before he got a shot was filled with some good names, some okay names and cans, Chavez was straight up cans all the way, he didn't fight a good name until he got his title shot which is why he could fight these guys 12 in a single year because he ran threw them, they were short fights and was more like Chavez fucking them up instead of it being an actual contest, if you subtract the good names off his resume which consisted of 115 fights you'll get like 89 cans, I ain't saying EVERY fight had to be against an elite but conjo man at least 1 B level dude and a few C's, Cesar was racking up F level guys whom never was in terms of names and records.. Hagler and Chavez is a bad comparison.. he can't be excused for fighting nothing but cans up until he got a title shot because of who he is, that wouldn't be right, I'm not even saying he wasn't great but answer me this, can you say I'm wrong when I say Julio Cesar Chavez's first 43 bouts were against cans? nah, right? I ain't saying EVERYBODY has to be a challenge but c'mon at least a few good guys, impressive records and tough, there had to be guys like that around that time he just didn't raise up, him and his team picked opponents and cruised all the way to a title and he's doing the same thing with his son, nobody ducked him because at that point nobody knew of him, he didn't beat anybody of stature he just had a padded record and eventually gained a shot and built a reputation for being one tough motherfucker, he eventually fought the best of his time and he beat many of them guys but he lost to a few too, he lost to Taylor whether you agree or not, the round was over dogz, I saw a Roy Jones Jr fight where the same referee gave some dude that Roy knocked silly the benefit of the doubt and gave him MAD time when dude was clearly out of it, I'll see if I could get the video on here, if he would have given Taylor THAT much time the round would have ended, he was too quick in stopping that fight for a guy who was up on his feet by 5.. Chavez lost to a few and he beat a few but one thing remains true no matter what YOU or 2501 says and thats for the beginning of his career and throughout the majority of his whole record there are MANY cans, he fought GREAT guys don't get me wrong but overall he could have faced better opposition had he not whooped on so many cans before his title shot, it's evident because he's doing it with Junior, he got Junior damn near 40-0 and he has yet to win a significant bout over a GOOD QUALITY opponent, I don't know what he's waiting for yo on the real, he's about to have more wins than Floyd but against who?? thats what I'm saying he's padding his record up and when he FINALLY does step up he's going to be damn near 50-0, like father like son.. think about it. 100