Iceman vs Ken Shamrock, last night...

I engaged in a pretty interesting hour long phone call/interview/debate/conversation last night with www.fightnewsunlimited.com's Rich Bergeron (as the mediator) and MMA legend Ken Shamrock. There was a lot to talk about in an hour and I think at the end of the session we had both made some good points on behalf of our sport but one thing he said that really stands out was when he made note of the fact that our best fighter, Floyd Mayweather Jr., "would get crushed in MMA." I mean, come on, that's not something to be bragging about. The best MMA guys could take down a 147 pound guy that has never wrestled, grappled or competed in martial arts in his life. I said "Well, that's like saying that Michael Jordan couldn't win in MMA, either, because the two sports are as different as basketball is compared to them." I also had the lingering feeling that he was saying this tome in sort of a challenging way. So an MMA champ could beat Floyd... in MMA? "And don't forget, you could take both yourself and Tito Ortiz and Floyd would whip both of you within a minute of each other while only using one hand." I knew I was right and, to his credit, Ken agreed with me on that point. We certainly disagreed with each other on several other points but at the end of the day I think two things are clear at this point. First is that the best MMA guy will beat the best boxer... at MMA. And the best boxer would demolish the best MMA guy at boxing. Second is that as well as the MMA is doing and as well as it may do in the future I think boxing has a strong tradition that will persevere. We are still the leading fighting sport in terms of name recognition among the masses and we are certainly the leaders in terms of producing the multi-millionaires. Will that change? You never know but one thing about the whole debate in my mind is this: The MMA is a particularly violent sport with aspects involved other than just the clean punching that makes boxing so popular and, for me anyway, I think the wrestling and grappling parts of it will eventually turn people off. I know it does for me. It's like baseball to me. I find it hard to sit through more than seventy at bats (complete with numerous walks and fouls balls) when I can turn on the news later at night and see all the doubles and home runs in one quick clip on the local news. We'll see, I guess, right?

Comments (20)

you mean like hatton, or maussa or jones. jr. or hamed who used "normal boxing stance" ? No retard. Chuck's stance is almost the worst for boxing. That's because it's much closer to a wrestling stance (NOT boxing). That's because he's a wrestler that can strike (Not a BOXER). Side note, just because a person punches, does not mean he's a boxer.

18y ago

ferocity

Yes, and chuck a masterful boxer who uses a normal boxing stance. you mean like hatton, or maussa or jones. jr. or hamed who used "normal boxing stance" ?

18y ago

freedom213

i believe you would be talking to different weight classes when it comes to peter and rampage when it comes to mma. the weight limit for a light heavyweight is 205 and I don't think Peter weighs less or at 205 chuck Liddell would be a heavy weight in boxing so Im just trying to sqaure the field but my point is Chuck Liddell and guys like Rampage live and die on brawling upright. So a guy like Sam Peter would have super heavy and quick hands against the like and at the heavier weights would decimate opponents just from landing one punch, even his jabs. At the lower weights this would not work as well but there are still many guys who would be able to pot shot mma guys until it was lights out very quickly.

18y ago

FluugMacMan

it worked many years for chuck liddel Yes, and chuck a masterful boxer who uses a normal boxing stance.

18y ago

ferocity

If everyone knows what your kryptonite is, why would you keep the fight at his deadliest strength? If PBF fought MMA, everyone and their momma would be MT kicking his legs from underneath him and tackling his sorry butt to the ground. Unless PBF had extensive training in MMA and thus became a mixed martial artist, then he could be a force as a mixed martial artist with brilliant boxing skills. BTW ferocity, if a boxer is close enough to throw a clean punch, he would be in takedown range well before he got close enough to jab. In essence, a pure boxer only has the instant before he's tackle to knock a person out, and only a punches chance at that. Other then the boxer getting mauled by virtually any situation the MMAer decides to put him in, he only has a punches chance. This is sad. How come so many people thing all boxers' have superman like strength, where they all have one touch ko's no matter how they punch. I'm not getting that, I know with the roid cases floating around, people maybe more inclined to think that, but come on. A boxer will have more succes in mma, then a mma will every have in boxing. mma, take the man out before he takes you out. you're lieing to yourself if you think boxers aren't capable of defeating an mma. just because it is under mma rules doesn't mean the boxer will fight you under mma style, i've see these mma guys on spike tv circling and tring to decide when to punch, and many times they rush for the take down and it gets them no where so they go back on there feet toe to toe. basicly mma is wreastling, except its real.

18y ago

FluugMacMan

i think as a fighter, you are under estimating mayweather and boxing, one clean punch and these mma guys would crumble, i've seen some slips of mma and some can't with stand much of a punch If everyone knows what your kryptonite is, why would you keep the fight at his deadliest strength? If PBF fought MMA, everyone and their momma would be MT kicking his legs from underneath him and tackling his sorry butt to the ground. Unless PBF had extensive training in MMA and thus became a mixed martial artist, then he could be a force as a mixed martial artist with brilliant boxing skills. BTW ferocity, if a boxer is close enough to throw a clean punch, he would be in takedown range well before he got close enough to jab. In essence, a pure boxer only has the instant before he's tackle to knock a person out, and only a punches chance at that. Other then the boxer getting mauled by virtually any situation the MMAer decides to put him in, he only has a punches chance. This is sad. How come so many people thing all boxers' have superman like strength, where they all have one touch ko's no matter how they punch. I'm not getting that, I know with the roid cases floating around, people maybe more inclined to think that, but come on.

18y ago

GreatestIam

You know the thing i dont get about UFC (MMA) its been marketed like its a new sport but last time i checked Royce Gracie won UFC 1 like 15 yrs ago! So i try not to compare the 2, boxing has been around since the 1800's maybe longer and well its still around and only getting better.... I can remeber renting videos of UFC fights with the likes of Tank Abbott, Ken Shamrock, the fat dude wit the ponytail etc... and say well damn if MMA is this that and the third then why didnt it blowup back then... Many will say will it didnt have the marketing or Dana WHite wasnt involved and that there proves the point boxing is better because it didnt take one man to change it there was never a real pioneer, but pioneer(S) and thats why boxing will alwasy out do UFC (MMA)

18y ago

ICEMAN_JOHN_SCULLY

Isn't iceman that famous hitman that hbo did a special on YEAH THAT GUY was vicuous wasn't he? He used to kill people so smoothly in ways that couldnt traced...he would put some liquid on a guys armand BAM a little while later the guy would fall dead. He described his killings..and he truly was COLD. And as far as the MMA guys not taking good punches I have to say that strciitly from my own experience with some of those guys, even the biggest guys (250 pounds) that I have sparred with ,,,,,,taking clean punches definitely wasnt a strong point

18y ago

ferocity

Im just waiting for the day untill one star finally does take the MMA challenge. With all this talk sooner or later it will happen. For those real MMA followers who have seen UFC 1 to around 10. I think a real good boxer could have won every fight. But these days they dont have a chance. Acutally KERMIT CINTRON already stepped up to UFC and challenged there champion, but guess who backed down......UFC. I wouldn't be surprised if Mayorga after he is done as a competitive fighter in boxing goes to mma.

18y ago

ferocity

Technique? Boxing technique per se doesn't work in MMA, you can't throw a singe punch from a normal boxing stance it worked many years for chuck liddel

18y ago

ferocity

one thing he said that really stands out was when he made note of the fact that our best fighter, Floyd Mayweather Jr., "would get crushed in MMA." i think as a fighter, you are under estimating mayweather and boxing, one clean punch and these mma guys would crumble, i've seen some slips of mma and some can't with stand much of a punch

18y ago

chosen0309

Well I agree with your point too, if MMA fighters learned more about boxing they would be better standup fighters. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to start an MMA vs. boxing argument. I've been a fan of Cintron since he was fighting on TeleFutura. But I know that even though he is a great boxer compared to MMA, his wrestling if far behind. You are right, the basketball baseball analogy was weak… The bottom line is I like both sports and I’m often more fanatical about boxing than MMA…but I also try to remain objective when it comes to comparing the two.

18y ago

snoopy360

I thought he wrestled in college? Not sure which it was. However I'm just saying that with his understanding of wrestling he should be able to fend of the take down. Plus MMA fighters aren't used to foot movement and general use of the space provided for them in the octagon. If MMA'ers would learn how to circle their opponents correctly oh the damage they could do. I conceed your point on the boxer converting to an MMA fighter. I'm old school and think of UFC in terms of how it used to be. When they used to put Karate vs. Jiu Jitsu it was the fighters main discipline that was focused on not what he was learning at the moment.

18y ago

chosen0309

Your assesment is correct in a sense. However MMA uses boxing in its discipline. So what your saying in order for a boxer to fight in MMA and prove that boxing is superious is for the boxer to fight as if he were in a boxing match and the MMA'er to fight as if he were in a MMA fight? What I'm saying is that if a Boxer were to decide to enter into MMA i.e. Cintron he would be a dominate force because on his feet he would destroy opponenets, and with his wrestling back ground he would be able to keep the fight off the ground. MMA stand up is so far behind boxing its not even funny, even the Muay Thai they train is a water'd down version of the original discipline. Face it if Dana White really believed that his fighters could beat Cintron he would have signed the contract immediately. Instead he knows that Cintron would literally put his fighters in the hospital and the UFC would end up looking like a bunch of bar room brawlers. I'm not hating the UFC but the proof is in the silence. You haven't heard shit from Dana White since Cintron called him out. no...this is not what I am saying. I'm not making an argument based on boxing being better than MMA or vise versa... What I am saying is this...If a boxer went in the ring with the knowledge and skills of other disciplines then he is not just a boxer...he is a mixed martial artist...so it would just be one mma fighter vs. another...except one is a hell of a lot better at boxing. with his wrestling back ground he would be able to keep the fight off the ground here is one point i disagree with...Cintron only wrestled in high school. While he did well, it wasn't as if he were a national champion. Compare him to say, Josh Koscheck... a four-time national champion. Cintron doesn't hold a candle to Koscheck when it comes to wrestling...and Koscheck was taken down easily by Georges St. Pierre. If Josh Koscheck can be taken down I gurantee you that Cintron can be taken down.

18y ago

Antonio

Cintron could beat some guys I'm convinced. He still needs to be schooled in some other aspects though, just to be safe. All he has to do is go the Lidell route and use his wrestling skills to avoid getting taken down, while controlling the fight on his feet. His style of boxing is great for MMA too because he throws long punches, and he can hook off of the jab.

18y ago

SkillspayBills

I was about to say that Iceman whooped Shamrocks ass. Either way it should have been an interesting debate and what you said is what we all believe.

18y ago

snoopy360

18y ago

Dorian

Drugs are bad, Mmkay. http://www.esse.ou.edu/~cwaller/204_mkaymackey.JPG ok now i understand...mmkay :P

18y ago

dino

I DISAGREE, I THINK BOXERS CAN BEAT MMA FIGHTERS IN MMA, BUT JUST NOT FLOYD MAYWEATHER WHO'S NOT MADE FOR MMA. I'D PUT MY MONEY ON DAVID TUA VS TANK ABBOT ANYBODY I'D PUT MY MONEY ON WLAD KLITCHKO VS TIM SYLVIA ANYDAY I'D PUT MY MONEY ON JERMIAINE TAYLOR VS SEAN SHREK (WHO'S ACTUALLY A MIDDLEWEIGHT BY BOXING STANARDS ANYDAY) I'D PUT MY MONEY ON Jean-Marc Mormeck VS ANDERSON SILVA OR RICH FRANKLIN ANYWAY MMA WEIGHTS ARE DIFFERENT FROM BOXING WEIGHTS. THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT SEAN SHREK FIGHTING MAYWEATHER, THEN SHREK WALKS AROUND AT 180 AND HE FIGHTS AT 156 WEIGHT CLASS, HE'S A MIDDLEWEIGHT

18y ago

chosen0309

A real boxer did issue a challenge to UFC president Dana White by the name of Kermit "The Killer" Cintron, outstanding wrestler and Current Champ. In fact a good boxer would do well in the UFC with proper wrestling knowledge for the simple fact of the way they position thier body's. Boxers are used to fighting at angles and most MMA'ers use lazy jabs, sloppy hooks to distract before going for the "shoot." Boxers can counter these sloppy attempts and disrupt the take down. Jiu Jitsu in and of itself only teaches submissions and uses wrestling and judo technique to teach students on how to get the opponent on the ground. A good boxer will destroy an Elite MMA'er if they were to train in that discipline. Notice the emphasis on Good vs. Elite. Don't get me wronge I love watching both sports and I don't miss a chance to see either one. But honestly MMA needs to take a page out of boxings book of how to throw a proper punch. Randy Couture did and look at his success, where do they think the term dirty boxing came from??? Then he is no longer just a boxer...he is a mixed martial artist!!! This is like saying if Micheal Jordan took extensive baseball training and did great, then basketball players are better baseball players

18y ago