Teddy Atlas: The athletes: boxers, fighters, and others, are not heroes. Soldiers are

I had to fix the typos LOL Quote: Originally Posted by ELPacman I agree with Teddy pretty much. Boxers fight for their own wealth and put on a show for the people. The bottomline is they got into the buisness to make money. I see your point, etc, I do...I just wanted to interject something here.....I did NOT get in the sport of boxing to make money (I know I am one of the few who can say that)... I actually talk about this in my book....the fact that I used to get paid to go spar Roy Jones, James Toney, etc...the fact that I got paid as much as I did to fight Michael Nunn, etc always made me laugh!!! When they would pay me after sparring Roy, at the end of the week, I used to laugh to myself and think how crazy it would be to them if they knew I would have sparred him for free.

I agree with Teddy pretty much. Boxers fight for their own wealth and put on a show for the people. The bottomline is they got into the buisness to make money. I see your point, etc, I do...I just wanted to interject something here.....Idid NO get in the sport of boxing to make money( I know I am one of the few who can say that)...I actually talk about this in my book....the fact that I used to get paid to go spar Roy Jones, James Toney etc...the fact that I got paid as much as I did to fight Michael Nun etc always made me laugh!!! When they would pay me after sparring Roy at the end of the week..I used to laugh to myself and think how crazy it would be to them if they knew i would have sparred him for free.

Found this... Says pretty well everything on the subject. ay, somebody get this man a beer. SPC Milo Freeman, where ever you are dude, we will freakin drink some cold ones you get back. HOOAH!!! SGT Guzman 20th Engineer Brigade AIRBORNE!

Found this... Says pretty well everything on the subject. Memorandum for Record: Military Spending Concerns FROM: SPC Freeman, Milo; US Army, Iraq TO: Senate Democrats, Republicans, and "American Idol" viewers across the nation. 1. You. Punk. Ass. Pantywaisted. Bitches. 2. You had a chance. You could have put your money where your mouth is--could have put some ass behind all those claims of "favoring an end to war." 3. And you fucking choked. 4. Let me explain something to you. Your children; your spouses; your lovers and friends and parents and CONSTITUENTS are hostages to this war. They're dying for a conflict with no concrete objective. They're losing marriages and childhood moments to a never-ending cycle of extended tours. Their equipment, their morale, is stretched thin. And some of them--those of us smart enough not to buy the fucking hype--were counting on you to find your fucking testicles and put an end to this shit. We were counting on you to save us from ourselves; to find a way to put us to use serving our country in ways perhaps more effective in rebuilding our nation. 5. And you. Fucking. Choked. 6. I haven't gotten a current edition of the paper in months. It's always a day behind. I don't get to check the news--I barely have the time. So what am I to think when I read yesterday's Stars and Stripes, and hear about this shit? Is that supposed to tell me that my leaders, my countrymen give a flying FUCK about what happens to me or my wife? Is that the message I'm supposed to glean from this STUNNING lack of cojones? Because I gotta tell you, America, I'm not seeing it. 7. I'm so sick of hearing this wretched war talked about in terms of Victory or Defeat. "If we leave, the terrorists will win." 8. Fuck that. 9. Today it's Terrorists. Yesterday it was Blacks/Gays/Jews/Hippies. Before that it was Communists. Before that, it was Uppity Colonials with Secondhand Muskets and Pitchforks. It's always fucking something with you people, isn't it? 10.You just need your little wars to feel good about yourselves, don't you? Something to make you feel threatened; something to make you feel heroic; ANYTHING to make you feel like your pathetic lives are more than just you against the Big, Black, Scary Infinite. Well, obviously, it's working. 11. You don't magically "win" an occupation. It's an inevitable bleed-out. We're stuck in a situation beyond our powers to fix, in a country that WE voted to destroy, whose history and people we neither understand nor care to try. We bought the hype, hook-line-and-sinker. 12. Fuck Victory. Fuck Defeat. Any way you slice it, This. War. Is. Wrong. 13.You don't keep trying to win the game after it turns out you bribed the refs. You fire the coaches and/or players responsible, and you hand over the Title. You take your lumps like a fucking man and try to rebuild. Accept it. 13. Hope you're happy, America. Clutch your pearls about all those dirty liberals who voted against the proposal ("They didn't Support The Troops!"). Whine about all the evil elderly schoolteachers and librarians protesting the war on a Saturday morning outside your courthouse. 14. But when your son or daughter or spouse or first lay comes home airfreight, mangled into a closed-casket service by a daisy-chain of 155s buried under Route Tampa, remember this: 15. It won't be the dirty liberals who put them there. 16. Hoo-ah. // ORIGINAL SIGNED Milo Freeman, SPC United States Army, Iraq

LOL @ NCO in just a matter of months. The army promotes faster than the air force though, so they have alot more slots for NCO's to move up. But i think you understood my point the best, im not going to pretend and buy into the whole heroic crusade ideal because i think that would be unquestionably arrogant. People in the civilian world already get mad when you try to put it on people about how "I WAS IN THE MILITARY AND IN THE MILITARY I DID THIS AND THIS AND THIS" etc. Once you leave the military and take the uniform off your just like anyone else. To be a hero to me you have to do elevate yourself amongst your peers and do something to be called that. If you went overseas, did your job and came home, then thats what you did, but if you rescued some folks or did some crazy shit to keep others alive, then to me you are a hero. You see what im saying? But this is me after my article 15. Notice i have 4 ribbons, one of them im not wearing because i couldnt find it. I honestly think your one of the only people here other than a couple others who really understands where im coming from. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3889&stc=1&d=1180795664 ay, you look squared away man! I recognized The National Defense Medal, and the OEF Expeditionary Medal. I think you get to wear a bronze star on NDM, I came in before 9/11, so you are authorized to wear it on you Class-A. So yeah, check this out...I came home, January 2004, after serving 250 days in OEF, and wow, it was like everybody and thier mom's wanted to shake my hand and say "Thank you". and I didn't know how to react cause I was just doing what I signed up to do, i was just doing my job. Anyway, two years later...I get the "sucks-to-be-you" look! I can't even get on the bus for free any more, LOL! Not asking for special privilages or anything, but ay man, I know exactly what your saying about.."when the Uniform comes off". I'm content just being a regular joe. All the heroes are in Arlington. Peace brother...keep in touch.

I love the muslim generalizations in this thread amongst much of the other utter stupidity mentioned by some of you. As for Black Jesus, dude don't even bother. Those other two are completely ignoring most of your posts and just sounding off about "support the troops". Anyway, this thread failed to deliver.

I'm a soldier...there are soldiers and fighters that are heroes but not all...i know some dirtbags in the Army that I would not go to war with...think about it...there's more than millions in the military....u think all are badasses? some boxers are heroes cuz they came from poverty and they are setting good example to stay off the streets and out of jail....and some boxers are on roids be openminded people

I think this speech was bullshit. I mean I agree that the soldiers are heroes, but boxers and fighters are too. I felt kind of betrayed when Teddy said that boxers aren't heroes. Boxers are heroes. Look at all the heroes like DLH, Erik Morales, Barrera, and so many others who conquered impossible obstacles with courage and bravery, just like the soldiers. It would have been better had he said that both are heroes. How did you feel about him saying this? I understand your point but disagree. Athletes provide INSPIRATION for other individuals in society and may be role models and overall great individuals but not heroes (in my opinion). While athletes entertain us and often do so at risk to their physical health, they are paid and the end result is usually (overwhelmingly usually) not death. On the other hand soldiers are paid very little to protect our freedom whether or not it is under direct attack right now. Boxers/athletes wouldn't be able to enjoy their position of noteriety if we didn't live in a safe place. So in the end these guys die to make our lives easier/better for little to no money or fame. I love athletes and especially boxers and I find that their stories and lessons often provide good learning for us...they do not qualify as heroes.

way off topic this one is now lol

You know why you have that right? I bet you do. The americans fighting for you to have that right. I know people disagree with the war and blah blah blah but to be out right disrespectful about soldiers is crazy. You many not agree but don't be disrespectful toward the people that gave you the right to talk shit on this forum. Are you retarded? He's a veteran nobody gave him shit, he EARNED the right to his opinion. And even if you aren't a veteran, HUMANS have a right to voice their opinion. Disagreeing is not disrespecting and being quiet about something that you know is wrong is cowardly.

my brother! I even had to read your post twice! It was like day-ja-voo, or how ever you spell it, but i feel you. 250 days in hot blazing desert, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Drill Sergeant always said...."no one made you sign that contract, you came here cause you wanted to". Like you, I enlisted when it was "BE ALL YOU CAN BE", where it took me 5 years to make Sergeant because of point system that caters to combat MOS'. A new Soldier, 20 years old, just having 2 years of Military experience, is promoted to NCO status! That, IMHO, is setting up a young Sergeant for failure. Like the the old saying..."wisdom comes with age". Two years is insufficient time to have received vital training. The other day I saw an E2 with two rows of service ribbons! At first I thought he must have just gotten de-moted...but when I asked him, his time in service was only 8 months! WTFO! It is no wonder the The Commander in Chief gives the Military a pay raise just about every other January. And DA is offering such huge incentives to keep folks from ETS. The fact is, 80% of Enlisted Soldiers just do one tour (4 years) and get out....It's all about that GI Bill, never mind that being patriotic business. Like you brother,...I had to eat shit.....AND LIKE IT! The Military is a great place. Crossed the Atlantic 14 times and through the Army, I've watched the Sun rise from 15 different Countries. Learned a great deal, saw the world, jumped out of perfectly good airplanes....but it will never take the place of Family. In the Army, it's "Duty First". But you know what I say? "Duty First,...Family ALWAYS"!!! LOL @ NCO in just a matter of months. The army promotes faster than the air force though, so they have alot more slots for NCO's to move up. But i think you understood my point the best, im not going to pretend and buy into the whole heroic crusade ideal because i think that would be unquestionably arrogant. People in the civilian world already get mad when you try to put it on people about how "I WAS IN THE MILITARY AND IN THE MILITARY I DID THIS AND THIS AND THIS" etc. Once you leave the military and take the uniform off your just like anyone else. To be a hero to me you have to do elevate yourself amongst your peers and do something to be called that. If you went overseas, did your job and came home, then thats what you did, but if you rescued some folks or did some crazy shit to keep others alive, then to me you are a hero. You see what im saying? But this is me after my article 15. Notice i have 4 ribbons, one of them im not wearing because i couldnt find it. I honestly think your one of the only people here other than a couple others who really understands where im coming from. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3889&stc=1&d=1180795664

When Edison Miranda survived after being abandoned by his mother and rose to become a top middleweight, that was heroic, because it required courage. Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano rising from extreme poverty to become world heavyweight champions was heroic. Killing people with bombs and powerful guns in some impoverished country like Vietnam or Iraq is not heroic. Muhammed Ali was the greater hero when he chose to go to prison, rather than be part of it. I see your living in canada huh. The only reason you dont live under an opressive regime like the nazi germany of the ww2 is because of the bravery of people like my grandfather. I am not pro war by any means but that statement you made is fucking bullshit buddy. While sit at home and type on your computer in the comfort of your canadian home millions of kids your age did not have the opportunity you did so they chose the army. NO ONE chooses to go to iraq or afghanistan or vietnam or D day or germany etc. They are doing their duty protecting our freedoms. YOURS AND MINE. I am not saying i agree with the war but pieces of shit like you sitting on your couch talking boxing and who's their favorite boxer (hero) need to stop and think about what I am saying. Their are alot of boxers who in my opinion achieved hero status for thier accomplishments in and out of the ring ALI being one. However, it was a choice of his to duck the draft and did not make him a hero. A martyr maybe but not a hero. His work to achieve racial equality and his work for his people is what made him a hero in my eyes. Please people think before you write on this board because alot of our boys and girls are in the service and they are FUCKING HEROES!!!!!!!!!

I think this speech was bullshit. I mean I agree that the soldiers are heroes, but boxers and fighters are too. I felt kind of betrayed when Teddy said that boxers aren't heroes. Boxers are heroes. Look at all the heroes like DLH, Erik Morales, Barrera, and so many others who conquered impossible obstacles with courage and bravery, just like the soldiers. It would have been better had he said that both are heroes. How did you feel about him saying this? Alright "Hitman", you have a right to your own opinion, but check this out.... SOLDIER BOXER 1) After training... a) misses family, birthdays, etc., a) kisses his wife good-nite sleeps under 118+ reads bed time story to degree heat, shakes boots for scorpions kids. sleeps in bed, air camel spiders, eaten alive by mosquitos. condition. 2) goes on month after month with little or 2) eats whenever, takes no sleep, eating whenever possible, just saw few weeks off of train- his best friend take a direct hit, and bleeds to attends best friends death. funeral in pin-stripes. 3) never knows if "today"..will be the day 3) has a greater chance of being struck by lighting. 4) takes a whole month, sometimes 2, even 4) has unlimited nights & 3 months to get letter from family and weekend minutes. friends. 5) inhales toxic fumes, smells dead bodies, 5) sees it TV while eating watches dogs "eat" those dead, rotting ham & cheese sand- bodies. wich. 6) wakes-up to...."IN COMING"!!!!! 6) wakes up to "good morning sweetheart want eggs for breakfast?" 7) just threw himself on top of some one 7)says "daaamn!, sucks to be that fucker! 8) makes $100 dollars, they take back $99! 8) $,$$$,$$$ Ay man this list can go on & on....please don't take it personal as I don't mean to offend anyone, but brother...please that that Hero stuff for the guys that never made it home. peace! SGT Guzman 20th Engineer Brigade AIRBORNE!

As a Veteran, someone whos actually been in the desert and fought in the war on terror im going to tell you right now, most "heroes' joined the military not so they could defend freedom or any way of life. They did it for oppurtunity, the military is a job, being in the infantry is a job, being a logistics coordinator is a job, being a load master is a job etc etc. I didint join the military because i was patriotic, i joined because it was a great way for me to leave my home and get money for college. If the military was all about freedom and defending the country, they wouldnt offer so many incentives to join in the first place. The military is all about having enough bodies to flex political muscle while providing a purpose and mission to have a reason for you to be in. I dont feel sorry for any military personell fighting in iraq because you volunteer for that shit, nobody was fucking drafted like in Vietnam, you signed up, your being paid, and you do your job. Its not a heroes life to do that shit, you signed up to fulfill someone elses political agenda, period. I love this country and i was willing to give my life for it, but that doesnt mean i dont know the reality of who i am. As a soldier i was the lowest of the low, sent to do the dirty work no politician would dare do, hence why George Bush never flew over the sunny skies of vietnam. By fighting in Afgahnistan i didint defend my "way of life" i did my job because thats what i was asked to do. Defending my way of life would be more like if i was living in palestine throwing rocks at an isreali tank, or living in Sudan trying to flee from people attempting to ethnically cleanse me. Thats defending my way of life. Our war overseas is all about flexing political muscle. And its not going very well at the moment. And i love how people bring up "9-11" as if american lives somehow mean more than the rest of the world who live that shit everyday. Iraq has had about 9,000 9-11's yet you shed no tears. I think people like you are the reasons why wars like this are allowed to happen in the first place. my brother! I even had to read your post twice! It was like day-ja-voo, or how ever you spell it, but i feel you. 250 days in hot blazing desert, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Drill Sergeant always said...."no one made you sign that contract, you came here cause you wanted to". Like you, I enlisted when it was "BE ALL YOU CAN BE", where it took me 5 years to make Sergeant because of point system that caters to combat MOS'. A new Soldier, 20 years old, just having 2 years of Military experience, is promoted to NCO status! That, IMHO, is setting up a young Sergeant for failure. Like the the old saying..."wisdom comes with age". Two years is insufficient time to have received vital training. The other day I saw an E2 with two rows of service ribbons! At first I thought he must have just gotten de-moted...but when I asked him, his time in service was only 8 months! WTFO! It is no wonder the The Commander in Chief gives the Military a pay raise just about every other January. And DA is offering such huge incentives to keep folks from ETS. The fact is, 80% of Enlisted Soldiers just do one tour (4 years) and get out....It's all about that GI Bill, never mind that being patriotic business. Like you brother,...I had to eat shit.....AND LIKE IT! The Military is a great place. Crossed the Atlantic 14 times and through the Army, I've watched the Sun rise from 15 different Countries. Learned a great deal, saw the world, jumped out of perfectly good airplanes....but it will never take the place of Family. In the Army, it's "Duty First". But you know what I say? "Duty First,...Family ALWAYS"!!!

3,455 is nothing. That's still 3,455 soldiers to many. Those are brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, husbands and wives etc. of many americans. I know it's a small number compared to other wars, but it's not like their lives didn't mean anything. I know you probably didn't mean their lives meant nothing, but saying 3,455 deaths is nothing makes the rest of your arguement pretty weak.

God forbid people actually think for themselves out here, come on man. Thats rediculous, you go on about how you dont like people stereotyping people who are into MMA and all that other shit, yet you disrespect an entire state whos group of people are known for starting some of the most influential civil movements in the country (anti war/black panthers etc). Kill that noise. I guess to you anyone questioning the status quo is a lost cause? Yeah, California. The state that had BLACKOUTS because the idiots they elected did not build enough power plants.

I just don't understand how many god damn, and sorry for using this word, pussies, come to Amnesty and claim that what were doing in Iraq is 100% wrong. No, it isn't wrong. If it was wrong the American people would not have put up with it for this long. 655,000 dead Iraqi's you say and how many do you believe are civilians, probably more than 50%, right? How many do you believe died before the war? You know, we did not go to Iraq because Hussein was killing his people. That was an after thought after all of the other reasons that the Admin gave turned out to be false. Those numbers were compiled by what up until it realised those stats was considered a reliable scientific source, DOCTORS. Numbers are from The Lancet(a medical magazine) their death toll estimates have always been acceptable before. Now they researched and found a number higher than anyone expected and suddenly they are no longer a reliable source. "The Lancet study is sound science. The study followed a strict, widely accepted methodology to arrive at its sobering conclusion. The study is being attacked not on scientific grounds but for ideological reasons. People may not realize that The Lancet is the world’s most prestigious medical journal. Prior to publication, the Iraq study was subjected to a thorough peer review by specialists in the field of epidemiology." ~Source of quote It is a death estimate from March 2003 to July 2006. Before the invasion of our military it was an estimated 143,000 deaths per year. "• Estimated 654,965 additional deaths in Iraq between March 2003 and July 2006 • Majority of the additional deaths (91.8 percent) caused by violence • Males aged 15-44 years accounted for 59 percent of post-invasion violent deaths • About half of the households surveyed were uncertain who was responsible for the death of a household member • The proportion of deaths attributed to coalition forces diminished in 2006 to 26 percent. Between March 2003 and July 2006, households attributed 31 percent of deaths to the coalition • Mortality data from the 2006 study reaffirms 2004 estimates by Hopkins researchers and mirrors upward trends measured by other organizations • Researchers recommend establishment of an international body to calculate mortality and monitor health of people living in all regions affected by conflict" ~Source of quote Anyhow, I think I am done here. No point trying to tell the lot of you anything. Dude, Catherine lives in California. She is a lost cause. Fuck off.

I agree with Teddy pretty much. Boxers fight for their own wealth and put on a show for the people. The bottomline is they got into the buisness to make money. A lot of the soldiers signed up for patriotic reasons and I know during 9/11, a lot signed up to whoop some ass regardless of pay. <---That was said in the weakest form possible but gets the point. I never consider any boxer really a hero. I know some people who would. Guys that have gone into epic stature, Ali, Pacquiao, Chavez. People like them that have put their countries on the map big because of their ring efforts. Them who grew up in terrid conditions, fought to do better, all while keeping their respective country infront and as the drive to win. They can be heroes to their people, but not much to just fans of them. Idol is more the word, but we can't confuse that.

Dude, Catherine lives in California. She is a lost cause. God forbid people actually think for themselves out here, come on man. Thats rediculous, you go on about how you dont like people stereotyping people who are into MMA and all that other shit, yet you disrespect an entire state whos group of people are known for starting some of the most influential civil movements in the country (anti war/black panthers etc). Kill that noise. I guess to you anyone questioning the status quo is a lost cause?

As a long time former soldier and boxer I feel more qualified than most to comment on this. How is a boxer a hero??? A boxer can be brave and courageous yes but a hero??? Boxers in the main are in the sport for money and glory, that is not heroic. Boxers face the risk of injury and very rarely death to attain this glory and the money that comes with it. There are strict guidelines and rules set in place to protect boxers and the chance of severe injury or worse is rare. Add into that the fame and adulation that comes with the glory of being a great boxer, as I said being a boxer is far from heroic. A hero is someone who risks their lives and well being for a cause or for someone else, a hero has not chosen to be in direct harm although they understand the risks that come with their profession, they have no rules or guidelines to protect them, they receive limited pay and little or no adulation. Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen can be hero's, so can Firefighters, Police, Paramedic's etc etc but boxers definitely not! So I agree with Atlas. Great post brother! Some folks just don't understand what it is to serve.....for "HONOR" and country. You can't put a price tag on that. A boxer who lives to fight another day... is a warrior. The soldiers who gave all on the battle field....those are our true heroes. SGT Guzman 20th Engineer Brigade AIRBORNE!