Fixed Fights

The Olympics ________ VAPOR BROTHERS REVIEW

Jee that's funny DLH name appears quite alot in this thread... And alot of people say the Paquaio fight wasn't fixed?

Tyson v ettiene is the only obvious one i've seen. I thought that Tyson v Seldon was just as bad if not worse ali v.s liston II i think it was a fixed fight. Ali v Liston 2 defo,maybe even the first fight.

RJJ. Olymic final. No more need saying 100% agree. Did they think that the whole world wouldn't notice who the real winner was? :rolleyes:

Most recently OBVIOUS robbery was Montiel-Gorres in Gorres own backyard. Ref was seen brown nosing and celebrating with the mexican judge and team Montiel after the robbery, can we say conspiracy.

Chris Eubank says his fights were fixed (how about that!), but that the only decision he didn't deserve was Schommer. Watson was robbed the first time they fought.

Ottke vs Reid. The judges, the promoter, the referee and Sven Ottke were all in on it. Fucking cheating arseholes. Reid got ripped off mightily.

Whitaker vs CHAVEZ

RJJ Olympic final

sturm vs. de la hoya was fixed, so oscar and bernard hopkins fight could take place

From Boxrec: "The local hero did score with a light right but it was clearly not a knockdown."

kingroy, I see where you're coming from, but you are falling into the HBO CompuBox disease. It's not all about punch stats, because otherwise, wouldn't guys like Kassim Ouma be considered P4P? Looking at CompuBox for help in scoring fights is exactly like using the amateur/Olympic system that is widely despised. This isn't the amateurs, anyway. Just because a guy throws a bunch of punches, that doesn't mean he's outworking the other guy...especially when most of those punches not only DIDN'T land, they didn't come CLOSE. It takes ALOT of work to avoid ALOT of punches. You also can't stand and trade with any given opponent any given time, especially if you are a 40 year old fighter going against a 26 year old, bigger, stronger fighter. This is BOXING, not UFC, not a street fight. The winner doesn't have to be the one who threw more punches or was the aggressor. Like I said in that post, Hopkins was WORKING all night long, playing mind games and the like, mentally exhausting Taylor. This is no surprise, it's how he's always done things. He clearly accomplished his goal, as Taylor, who didn't throw an extraordinary amount of punches, was incredibly gassed at the end because of all the physcological warfare. I'm not saying THAT should say Hopkins won, but that's part of a boxing match. Oh, and just saying blows are illegal in your mind doesn't MAKE them illegal and thus doesn't give you or any scorer the right to give a round to the other fighter. If the referee doesn't give a warning or doesn't chastise the fighter throwing the punch, you can't just say 'oh, that was illegal, that doesn't really count'. Obviously an exception here would be a huge low blow that was somehow missed by the ref, but there was nothing like that in this fight. Moreover, the difference in fighting a guy like Taylor and a guy like Trinidad is obviously those fighters' respective styles. Trinidad came forward looking to hurt Hopkins with no real fear of him so he wanted to pressure and throw often, while Taylor, while aggressive, was very cautious. This precluded Hopkins from doing as much countering as he wanted to. I'm sure he expected Taylor to throw more than he did, which would have made the discrepancy in those precious punch numbers less obvious. Think about it: 3rd round you say Taylor went 3/36 and Hopkins went 5/13. (As stated earlier, I will ignore the '2 of them were illegal' comment). Let's double those numbers for argument's sake: Taylor goes 6/72 and Hopkins goes 10/26. Does that make it any clearer, just looking at numbers (which I don't advise, I'm not being a hypocrit, I just want to point out how even just using numbers can be countered), that Hopkins was so much more accurate and STILL landed more blows? If DLH chases Mayweather around the ring and goes 6/72 in a round while PBF goes 10/26, there will be alot of people who want to give the round to DLH based on aggression...but it CLEARLY wasn't effective. That's alot of missed/wasted punches, while PBF will have accurately and cleverely boxed and won the round in the eyes of more based on accuracy and efficiency. But the roles are reversed if you half the numbers because it doesn't look so bad for Taylor and you can just scream "Hopkins only threw 13 PUNCHES the whole round!" Besides, this was supposed to be Taylor's coronation, HBO and boxing in general WANTED him to win, and that's a tough hill to climb for any fighter, even hall of famers. If you just look at those numbers, sure, it looks like Taylor easily dominated so many early rounds, but you can't just give a text PBP and expect to be fair. Ouma is a guy who could land 45 punches in a round, throwing 120 and his opponent could land 20 of 55, but if most of those 20 are power shots and most of Ouma's punches are of the tap and peck variety, then you have to consider giving the round to the opponent (but you can't know without seeing it). I understand, given the detailed account, that you probably re-watched it to give your take, but your reliance on punch numbers is what I find faulty. It also skews the views of others who have seen the fight, were willingly or maybe even unwillingly effected by HBO's ridiculous commentary and will just say "yeah, yeah, look at those numbers, that's right, I didn't even remember how little Bernard threw, what are these Hopkins fans thinking?" Like I wrote, you really need to re-watch this fight in slow motion on mute, then re-score it, taking into account more subtle things like feints and overall ring generalship. I clearly am not alone on this. No one has responded to the sheer number of boxing experts who not only scored it for Hopkins, but alot of them didn't even think it was that close! Are those guys just complete morons or something? I don't think it's a coincidence that none of them were subjected to the HBO broadcast. Sorry for the length, but I get pretty passionate about this fight, because I hate that Hopkins' reign was ended in this fight. The rematch is a completely different story. I thought Hopkins won that fight too, but I'm alot less convicted of that opinion given that it was certainly a close fight and Taylor was, in my mind, better than in the first fight. I will never make posts like this about the rematch because the result was not as eggregious as I believe this one was. But again, without this controversial result in the first fight, the rematch would never have happened. yaeh i see what youre saying, really i know compubox doesnt mean much, but i wanted to make a point that Hopkins was not being as effective as a counterpuncher in the first 8 rounds, and that he clearly, as much as his mind games and hold backs were to play JT into the trap, he wasnt doing enough to win the rounds....(and i think hokins won the rematch)and yeah i know compubox numbers dont mean shit, like for example the vargas wright fight when vargas gets better numbers is just because of 2 rounds in which Vargas did a lot and Winky almost nothing, but i just put them to more and less show hopkins wasnt doing enough with counterpunches to win the rounds, because you cant change the fact that fights are scored by rounds, and i think hopkins won the fight, but didnt win the rounds to get the decision(maybe a draw) ps. round 3 Hopkins llands a low blow, Jt lowers his hands in pain, Hopkins holds the side of Talors back and gives him 2 hooks to the head, but Jay Nady separates them and warns Hopkins for the low blow, as you can see those 2 punches were landed after an illegal action so thats why i said 2 of them in my eyes dont count, i mean is like if a guy drops a guy after he truns his back from a low blow, and the referee saw the low blow... :fing02:

kingroy, I see where you're coming from, but you are falling into the HBO CompuBox disease. It's not all about punch stats, because otherwise, wouldn't guys like Kassim Ouma be considered P4P? Looking at CompuBox for help in scoring fights is exactly like using the amateur/Olympic system that is widely despised. This isn't the amateurs, anyway. Just because a guy throws a bunch of punches, that doesn't mean he's outworking the other guy...especially when most of those punches not only DIDN'T land, they didn't come CLOSE. It takes ALOT of work to avoid ALOT of punches. You also can't stand and trade with any given opponent any given time, especially if you are a 40 year old fighter going against a 26 year old, bigger, stronger fighter. This is BOXING, not UFC, not a street fight. The winner doesn't have to be the one who threw more punches or was the aggressor. Like I said in that post, Hopkins was WORKING all night long, playing mind games and the like, mentally exhausting Taylor. This is no surprise, it's how he's always done things. He clearly accomplished his goal, as Taylor, who didn't throw an extraordinary amount of punches, was incredibly gassed at the end because of all the physcological warfare. I'm not saying THAT should say Hopkins won, but that's part of a boxing match. Oh, and just saying blows are illegal in your mind doesn't MAKE them illegal and thus doesn't give you or any scorer the right to give a round to the other fighter. If the referee doesn't give a warning or doesn't chastise the fighter throwing the punch, you can't just say 'oh, that was illegal, that doesn't really count'. Obviously an exception here would be a huge low blow that was somehow missed by the ref, but there was nothing like that in this fight. Moreover, the difference in fighting a guy like Taylor and a guy like Trinidad is obviously those fighters' respective styles. Trinidad came forward looking to hurt Hopkins with no real fear of him so he wanted to pressure and throw often, while Taylor, while aggressive, was very cautious. This precluded Hopkins from doing as much countering as he wanted to. I'm sure he expected Taylor to throw more than he did, which would have made the discrepancy in those precious punch numbers less obvious. Think about it: 3rd round you say Taylor went 3/36 and Hopkins went 5/13. (As stated earlier, I will ignore the '2 of them were illegal' comment). Let's double those numbers for argument's sake: Taylor goes 6/72 and Hopkins goes 10/26. Does that make it any clearer, just looking at numbers (which I don't advise, I'm not being a hypocrit, I just want to point out how even just using numbers can be countered), that Hopkins was so much more accurate and STILL landed more blows? If DLH chases Mayweather around the ring and goes 6/72 in a round while PBF goes 10/26, there will be alot of people who want to give the round to DLH based on aggression...but it CLEARLY wasn't effective. That's alot of missed/wasted punches, while PBF will have accurately and cleverely boxed and won the round in the eyes of more based on accuracy and efficiency. But the roles are reversed if you half the numbers because it doesn't look so bad for Taylor and you can just scream "Hopkins only threw 13 PUNCHES the whole round!" Besides, this was supposed to be Taylor's coronation, HBO and boxing in general WANTED him to win, and that's a tough hill to climb for any fighter, even hall of famers. If you just look at those numbers, sure, it looks like Taylor easily dominated so many early rounds, but you can't just give a text PBP and expect to be fair. Ouma is a guy who could land 45 punches in a round, throwing 120 and his opponent could land 20 of 55, but if most of those 20 are power shots and most of Ouma's punches are of the tap and peck variety, then you have to consider giving the round to the opponent (but you can't know without seeing it). I understand, given the detailed account, that you probably re-watched it to give your take, but your reliance on punch numbers is what I find faulty. It also skews the views of others who have seen the fight, were willingly or maybe even unwillingly effected by HBO's ridiculous commentary and will just say "yeah, yeah, look at those numbers, that's right, I didn't even remember how little Bernard threw, what are these Hopkins fans thinking?" Like I wrote, you really need to re-watch this fight in slow motion on mute, then re-score it, taking into account more subtle things like feints and overall ring generalship. I clearly am not alone on this. No one has responded to the sheer number of boxing experts who not only scored it for Hopkins, but alot of them didn't even think it was that close! Are those guys just complete morons or something? I don't think it's a coincidence that none of them were subjected to the HBO broadcast. Sorry for the length, but I get pretty passionate about this fight, because I hate that Hopkins' reign was ended in this fight. The rematch is a completely different story. I thought Hopkins won that fight too, but I'm alot less convicted of that opinion given that it was certainly a close fight and Taylor was, in my mind, better than in the first fight. I will never make posts like this about the rematch because the result was not as eggregious as I believe this one was. But again, without this controversial result in the first fight, the rematch would never have happened.

RJJ. Olymic final. No more need saying yeah that was the biggest robbery ever......:nonono: fuck the olympic games organisation, the judges accept they were bribed and they dont give roy his medal??????fuck them...

RJJ. Olymic final. No more need saying

many thought brewster-Klitschko was fixed but i say hell no, brewster won that fight on his own with pure desire. No way that was fixed, Brewster endured a hell that I'm not sure any other fighter could have to win that fight. One of the gutsiest performances I've ever seen

round 1 very temptative, Taylor is the aggresor... not much done by either man, taylor emulates exactly the same punches hopkins throws at him when theyre clinching...best punch of the round,a short right hand for Taylor...Hopkins threw 12 punches(3 LANDED), taylor 23(2 LANDED)Taylor landed a good jab and a short right hand, Hopkins landed 2 really nothing left hooks and a good left hook to the body when clinching.....best punch of the round,a short right hand for Taylor... based on the 2 to 1 work(and that neither did much nor landed a great shot), i give this round to Taylor second round.Taylor starts very aggreive, good work for Hopkins when clinching. Taylor threw 49 punches, landed 13. Hopkins threw 20 punches, landed 4. best punch of the roundor at leats a shot that caught Hopkins unbalanced and made a good impression, a right hand of Taylor. Hopkins got in 2 left hooks when cinching and a good left hook when Taylor was coming inalso an overhand right. Taylor had him in the ropes a lot of times, and landed some rights to the body and head of Bernard. 2-0 Taylor. third round. Hopkins uses some dirty tactics(LOL), Taylor is the aggressor, some good 2 jab combinations from Taylor that make Bernard stay defensive, Bernard lands a low blow and then 2 right hooks, Jay Nady seprates them and warns him. Taylor keps at least throwing 2 jab combos while bernard holds back, Taylor lands a right hand to get Hopkins to the ropes and then a right hook when Hopkins gets off the ropes. Hopkins lands a very good left hook counter shot...probably the best punch of the round. but again, Hopkins is thrown to the ropes too much in this round Taylor throws 36 punches and lands 3. bernard lands 5 of 13 but two of them where ilegal as he was holding Taylor after the low blow. Taylor 3-0 4th round the toughest to score till now, both are aggressive, bernard lands soome good counters, particulerly an overhand right and a good left hook, Taylor keeps throwing him to the ropes, and flurries in the end of the round, no one really landed something to talk about, though jermain threw a good 2 jab-right hand combination that backd up hopkins at the begining of the round, and a good flurry to the body when Hopkins wanted to clinch.TAYLOR OUT WORKED HOPKINS and as HopKINS DIDNT LAND ANYTHING BIG, this round is Taylor's. TAYLOR LANDS 8 OUT OF 36 TO HOPKINS'S 6 OUT OF 26 5th round another difficult one to score, Hopkins is starting to be more aggresive, though sstill waiting for counter shots.Some dirty tactics by Hopkins, and he lands some little punches, theres an accidental headbutt jermaine returns and flurries with a 4 jab and right hand conmbination that throws Hopkins to the ropes then jermain throws little punches to the body,and Hopkins lands a right hand upstairs. Then bernard counters him ith 2 hooks to the head, the right hook being the best punch of the round but at the end again Taylor flurries and throws Brnard to the ropes. Bernard throws 20 landing 7, Taylor lands 8 out of 38. This couldve gone either way because Taylor's flurries sure are eye catching, but Hopkins countered good. I give that round to Hopkins, based on his effective counterpunching and that beautiful right hook counter. 4-1 Taylor. 6th round. TAYLOR IS THE AGRESSOR, throws some jabs and right hands, really nothing worth mentionig lands in this round, Hopkins counters some, but not as often nor as hard as last round, JT flurries in the last part of the round and keeps Hopkins very defensive, and outworks him a lot. Hopkins lands 4 out of 17, Taylor 17 out of 45. Clear round for Taylor.5-1 (ps Pat Burns is giving great advice , how come they fired him???well except for the respect part...that sure is a stupid comment) Round 7 is close, Hopkins returns to the dirty tactics, lands the best 2 shots of the round with his signature punch the counter overhand right.and holds and hits jermaine . Jermaine emulates Hopkins. Then Hopkins holds back and does nothing allowin Taylor to out work him and chase him around the ring, though Taylor really cant do much but with Hopkins throwing 26 punches landing 7 and Taylor throwing 35 LANDING 7 the round is very close, BUT BASED ON ACTIVITY AND tAYLORS LATE FLURRY I score it for Taylor(rally Hopkins threw that round away) Round 8, Both are very cautious but Jermain is the agressor and actually counters 3 times bernard, while bernard is inefective with his counters and very inactive, again Taylor flurries to Bernards body when Bernard tries to clinch.Easy round for Taylor. Hopkins 4 out of 24, taylor 5 out of 41. 7 rounds to 1 Taylor. Round 9 is actually a lot closer than i remembered. Taylor gets caught witha great right hand by Hopkins but then flurries on the ropes, Hopkins keeps Countering and coming in with right hands, but TAYLOR KEEPS WORKING and throws some eye catching flurries, still hOPKINS lands 11 OUT OF 34 to Taylor's 6 out of 43, proving thus his effective counterpunching and the ineffective agression of Taylor.This round is Hopkins's. 7-2 Taylor Round 10... no neeed to comment, all Hopkins 7-3 Taylor Round 11...agian hopkins takes it easy landing 17 of 40 to Taylor's 4 of 28 7-4 Taylor Round 12...not so one sided but Hopkins was still consistent with his power shots and counters landing 12 of 45 against Taylor's 5 out of 37 . 115-113 Jermaine Taylor. Hopkins 96 out of 326(29%), Taylor 86 of 453(19%) The problem for hopkins was that he threw 22 punches per round in the first 8 rounds of the fight, to Taylor's 38(170% of the punches thrown by hopkins). Hopkins landing 5 punches per round in the first 8 rounds against Taylor's 8 punches. and the connect percentage is almost even with Hopkins connecting 23% to Taylor's 21% And if anyone says some rounds were close and couldve gone either way, youre wrong, there was ONLY ONE round that couldve gone either way and thats the seveth round, were Hpkins landed the best shots was more accurate, Taylor threw more, landed more, but the difference for me wa sthat Hopkins had thhat round in the first minute and then went back and allowed Taylor to steal it.thats why i hate it when they say this fight was a robbery, it was either a decision for Taylor or a Draw. See the commentaries of maxboxing's Doug Fischer Rounds three and five were close rounds. round 3 was not that close, especially if one guy throws almost 3 times what the other one and is the agressor, inefective or not, they both landed 3 shots as 2 of Hopkins's were ilegal, and neither did much damage. He says round 5 is close (it is a llittle) when it is the only round of the first 6 that you can give to Hopkins. The only rounds that Taylor dominated were the first two. The first round was when Taylor was very innefective but Bernard was very inactive, thus, i consider the first round to be much closer than the 3rd round I still scored round three for Taylor, as well as the seventh (which went to Hopkins on all three official scorecards). I scored the eighth round for Hopkins, a round that went to Taylor on all three official scorecards. I thought the fourth round was close, but I scored it for Hopkins. So let's say I give Taylor rounds four and eight on my scorecard, which in my opinion is giving the kid every benefit of the doubt if you didnt score the 7th round to Hopkins, you cant even talk about giving him any other of the first 8 rounds except the fifth. giving the 8th round to hopkins when he landed 4 really not that good counters when he was out worked almost 2 to 1 (and otlanded too, though just 1 punch)and put on the defensive??? The only rounds that Taylor dominated were the first two.Hopkins dominated the last four. There can be no arguing this. I still scored round three for Taylor, as well as the seventh So let's say I give Taylor rounds four and eight on my scorecard, which in my opinion is giving the kid every benefit of the doubt, it's still a DRAW! SO, if he wouldve given every benefit of the doubt to Taylor, he wouldve given him the 1 , 2 ,3 ,4 , 7 and 8th round, so we can assume he gave rounds 5,6,9,10,11,12 to Hopkins. This is laughable, if he's willing to give rounds 3,4,7 to Taylor then why not give him round 6?????round 6 is one of the clearer rounds for Taylor!!!!!!!even clearer than rounds 3 and 4 that are already clear for Taylor, and certainly clearer than round 7 which is the one that couldve made this fight a draw..... Doug Fischer, you are an idiot....

when i think fo fixed i think of a fighter throwing the fight. not when judges rob fighters. hell every other fight is fixed just about if its just about judges robbing people.yea that's true

aggression factors into who wins the round, man. you need to learn about scoring. Hopkins didn't do jack until the last 4 rounds. He was more accurate because he landed tons of shots in those rounds. But over the first 8 rounds, Taylor fought and Hopkins didn't. If Hopkins had, maybe he would have been put on his ass. Otherwise, how do you explain Hopkins not coming to fight in the rematch? OK, it's not just guys like me and Hopkins fans who thought Bernard won the fight. Here is some info I gathered from the week after the fight happened: This sums it up, every single MAJOR boxing media member had either Hopkins winning or a draw--19 had Hopkins winning, 2 had a draw. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AGGRESSIVENESS and EFFECTIVE AGGRESSIVENESS!!! "I (Doug Fischer of maxboxing.com) scored the fight 116-112 for Hard Nard, as did David Mayo (Grand Rapids Press), Keith Idec (New Jersey Herald News), David Avila (Riverside Press Enterprise), Ramiro Gonzalez (La Opinion), Ron Borges (Boston Globe), and Tim Smith (New York Daily News). Steve Kim, Robert Morales (San Gabriel Valley Tribune & L.A. Daily News), Franklin McNeil (New Jersey Star-Ledger) and Ivan Goldman (The Ring) had it 117-111 for B-Hops. Joe Santoliquito (The Ring) had it 116-113 for Hopkins. Michael Katz (who covered the fight for Reuters), Max Kellerman (who was part of the HBO PPV broadcast team), Bernard Fernandez (Philadelphia Daily News), Kevin Iole (Las Vegas Review-Journal) and Paul Upham (secondsout.com) had it 115-113 for EX. The Associated Press had Hopkins up 114-113. Dan Rafael (ESPN.com) and Jerry Magee (San Diego Union-Tribune) saw it even, 114-114." Eric Raskin, Ring Magazine, 115-113, Hopkins Raskin: • My favorite line from Saturday night came from trainer Pat Burns, talking to Taylor after the fourth round: “He’s giving you a lot of respect. Take that respect away.” I think Taylor actually took Burns’ confusing advice, because by the last few rounds, Hopkins didn’t seem to be respecting his challenger at all. HBO's Broadcast was a disgrace. I've never been more disappointed in Lamps or Harold Lederman, both of whom repeatedly talked as if Hopkins was running and posing instead of fighting, when in actuality he was reeling Taylor in, using those incredible feints and mind games to tense up the challenger, then popping him with incredibly subtle counter straights and hooks. Sure there were dirty moments, but that's boxing, and Hopkins is the best. The headbutt was clearly UNINTENTIONAL, so I don't want to hear any BS "Hopkins was scared and desperate so he headbutt Taylor." Just because Hopkins wasn't taking the fight to Taylor until the 9th round doesn't mean he wasn't winning or wasn't in control. He CLEARLY set the pace for the bout and CLEARLY had Taylor running on empty in the last few rounds, because Hopkins--as he always does--had not only physically, but mentally executed his challenger. You must tell people to watch the fight on mute and in slow motion. That is the only way to appreciate Hopkins' performance. Who would you have rather been after the final bell? _____________________ Doug Fischer of maxboxing.com wrote this: The folks who believe Hopkins won the fight simply disagree with the official scoring, and there's more to it than the 12th round. Rounds three and five were close rounds. They were not easy to score and they certainly were not "easily won" by Taylor. The only rounds that Taylor dominated were the first two. Hopkins dominated the last four. There can be no arguing this. Rounds three through eight weren't so clear. They were rounds in which Taylor was more active than Hopkins, but not very effective. They were rounds in which Hopkins was defensively on point and more accurate with his counter punches, but very sparing in his punch output. So these rounds were open to subjectivity. If you favor the fighter who tries to make the fight (whether they land clean punches or not), you gave the majority of these rounds to Taylor. If you favor the fighter who controls the pace or the action of the rounds (we call it "ring generalship" - and it's something novice fight fans, and sadly some veteran judges, usually ignore), you gave the majority of these rounds to Hopkins. I'm a guy who recognizes ring generalship, but I still scored round three for Taylor, as well as the seventh (which went to Hopkins on all three official scorecards). I scored the eighth round for Hopkins, a round that went to Taylor on all three official scorecards. I thought the fourth round was close, but I scored it for Hopkins. So let's say I give Taylor rounds four and eight on my scorecard, which in my opinion is giving the kid every benefit of the doubt, it's still a DRAW! (If Roth scored the third and fifth rounds, which you think were easily Taylor's, his card would have been even, 114-114.) And can you tell me what Taylor did in rounds four through eight? What major punches did he land on Hopkins? Why is he getting so much credit for swinging and missing (and he wasn't even swinging for the fences, all he did was jab a few times and miss with a telegraphed right). My journalistic responsibility to the public is to call it like I see it. And that's what I did Saturday night. And that's what MaxBoxing.com is doing, especially in regards to HBO's corporate agenda, which has become completely disgusting. The cable network has great production and broadcasting value, but nothing in the way of broadcast journalism -- not in regards to their boxing progamming. This is the same network that wanted fans to believe that Meldrick Taylor was dominating Julio Cesar Chavez for nine straight rounds. The same network that created false controversy with De La Hoya-Trinidad and De La Hoya-Mosley II because their star did not win. They wanted you to believe that James Toney needed a knockdown just to get a draw in his fight with Vassiliy Jirov. That was all BULLS__T, and it's time someone said so. That decision for Taylor was bulls__t. I'm going to say it, and I'm going to keep saying it, especially to bulls__t fans who need to learn how to score a damn prize fight! ______________________ So, there you go. Apparently all those guys need to learn how to score fights to....

ali v.s liston II i think it was a fixed fight.