will Floyd go down as an ATG

Do I pass now? http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3183/inbox116320o1109229337kk9.jpg ...bitch ass nіgga. You know damn well your dick can't compete with a black man's. We always get it up.:luvbed:

Your giving PBF opponents far too much credit as i knew you would. PBF's opponents havent been that good recently. You mention the names of Hernandez and to be brutally honest i dont know much about them. If they were still good i probably would know about them, as they would be in the magazines that i browse through from time to time. Ive heard many times people say PBFs opponents werent the best by knowledgalble people, b ut the manner in the way PBF beat them was impressive and that is where PBF has got his dues. You mention Gatti and that says a lot to me about you. We'll agree to disagree, but isnt Hatton a great already?. The Ring Mags etc thinks Hattons pretty good already i think and hes already great isnt he? He beat Kostya Tsu and people considered him still great. We can debate all day whether PBF has beaten anyone as good as Kostya, and whether or not PBF could have beaten him. There have been many greats in the history of the sport, and room for many more. Its atg great were on about here though isnt it, and i am assuming atg is above great? How can you say I'm giving his opponents too much credit when you admit that you don't know anything about them? I mentioned Gatti, you mentioned Maussa. I think I get a little more credibility for mine. As I said, I think Hatton is good. The whole conversation started when you said Hatton could be not only an ATG, but even more so than Floyd. Since then you've admitted you don't know about Floyd's opponents, compared Tszyu, Maussa, Collazo and Urango with Gatti, Judah, Baldomir and DLH, and you've said you get your information about fighters by browsing through magazines "from time to time". Its like you don't even understand that Maussa, Urango and everyone pre-Tszyu mean nothing to the world of boxing. You think I'm giving Floyd's opponents too much credit, I think you're giving Hatton's too much. I suggest you take a look at some of these guys and reconsider.

he obviously acomplished great things, however his what-if legacy will overshadow the work he put in from 130 - 135.

You are crazy if you think Castillo (34 yrs old), Cotto, Tszyu, Collazo and Maussa are even slightly comparable to G. Hernandez, C. Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (29 yrs old), Zab, Gatti, Chavez, N'Dou, and De La Hoya. Hell I would rank Manfredy as a tougher opponent (considering weight class) than Maussa. Hatton does not have a good start to becoming an ATG. He has the undefeated record, but has it against relatively easy competition. And you have to consider that the toughest two fights out of that group haven't even happened yet (Cotto, Castillo), and may never happen I feel like you think I'm bashing Hatton, but I'm not. Personally, I don't care one way or another how his career goes. But he has shown me nothing by fighting the opponents that he's fought. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that he's got a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before he can be considered great. Your giving PBF opponents far too much credit as i knew you would. PBF's opponents havent been that good recently. You mention the names of Hernandez and to be brutally honest i dont know much about them. If they were still good i probably would know about them, as they would be in the magazines that i browse through from time to time. Ive heard many times people say PBFs opponents werent the best by knowledgalble people, b ut the manner in the way PBF beat them was impressive and that is where PBF has got his dues. You mention Gatti and that says a lot to me about you. We'll agree to disagree, but isnt Hatton a great already?. The Ring Mags etc thinks Hattons pretty good already i think and hes already great isnt he? He beat Kostya Tsu and people considered him still great. We can debate all day whether PBF has beaten anyone as good as Kostya, and whether or not PBF could have beaten him. There have been many greats in the history of the sport, and room for many more. Its atg great were on about here though isnt it, and i am assuming atg is above great?

A couple of scenarios would make me put him in the ATG category: (1) He decisively beats DLH and then decisively beats the Cotto/Margarito winner plus one more big win perhaps against someone like Berto if he continues to rise and becomes a star in the next couple of years. This is very unlikely because we know how likely a PBF-Margarito fight is, and the chances of PBF-Cotto are probably just as much a longshot given the inevitable involvement of Arum. (2) He decisively beats DLH, then goes all the way back down to 140 for the jr welterweight megafight vs. Hatton (if he beats JL Castillo) and then beats Cotto if Cotto beats Margarito and remains undefeated until then. This is also very unlikely as PBF will probably never go below 147 again, and of course again we have the Top Rank/Cotto situation. Both of these scenarios are very, very unlikely and odds are PBF--if indeed he keeps fighting--will be semi-retired and fight once or at most twice a year against the lowest risk decent opposition out there. Obviously his ATG status depends on fighting the Cotto/Margarito winner in some way shape or form, unless that winner is defeated by Paul Williams or Berto or something. We may see a situation like Ray Leonard where PBF retires after DLH and then picks and chooses the biggest fights that can garner himself the least risk with the most reward. Leonard, to his credit, fought bigger, stronger opponents in Hagler and Hearns but clearly tried to time the fights to his biggest possible advantage. In other words, perhaps PBF waits a couple more years to fight Margarito or even 5-6 years to fight Cotto when he still is quicker than Cotto but Cotto will have lost a considerable about of hand speed and agility.

Well if Hatton beats Castillo i would like to hear what he says about Hatton compared to PBF. If Hatton could beat Cotto that would have me putting him up there with PBFs record up to now. Followed by PBF. If he beats PBFs then yes as i said Hatton will be up there. Hatton is ambitious, he wants to be the best, and believes in his ability to be the best. Being the best is a long journey and he is on the long road to it. Urango is the start. You are crazy if you think Castillo (34 yrs old), Cotto, Tszyu, Collazo and Maussa are even slightly comparable to G. Hernandez, C. Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (29 yrs old), Zab, Gatti, Chavez, N'Dou, and De La Hoya. Hell I would rank Manfredy as a tougher opponent (considering weight class) than Maussa. Hatton does not have a good start to becoming an ATG. He has the undefeated record, but has it against relatively easy competition. And you have to consider that the toughest two fights out of that group haven't even happened yet (Cotto, Castillo), and may never happen. I feel like you think I'm bashing Hatton, but I'm not. Personally, I don't care one way or another how his career goes. But he has shown me nothing by fighting the opponents that he's fought. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that he's got a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before he can be considered great.

I agree with you. PBF will have to beat them because your critics will always try and question you and that will happen to PBF. I am trying to help PBF with telling him who he should be beating, becuase his critics in 10 years time will use it agaisnt him if he doesnt. His critics will say he isnt a atg because he didnt face this person or that person when he could or should have.

if he beats dela hoya and retires at 38-0, he goes down in history as one of the few world champions to win titles in 5 different weight classes, quite an achievement, considering thats he's not even 30 yet, floyd could make a case that he's better than casamayor and freitas at 130 and spadafora at 135, but there was challenge that exists at 140-147 in Hatton and Cotto, even margarito and paul williams poses a threat, PBF is a locked at future hall of fame but he still needs to beat these opponents to be considered all time great.

Like I've been saying, when will he prove it? You keep saying he COULD have beaten all Floyd's opponents, but he hasn't fought that caliber of fighter. You're trying to tell me that in his last few years of boxing, Hatton is going to fight a larger number of credible opponents than Floyd has? What I was telling you was that IMO Hatton will need to fight about 6 straight "very good" to "great" fighters to be on that level. Saying he could have beaten them means nothing in boxing. and Urango is not a very good start. Castillo really doesn't even do much for me at this point, although I would count that as a credible opponent. He'll be 29 and will have fought 2/3 (depending on what Collazo shows in the near future) good opponents. You say he could be higher up than Floyd, I say he's going to need the best 4 years of any fighter in the history of boxing to do it. Well if Hatton beats Castillo i would like to hear what he says about Hatton compared to PBF. If Hatton could beat Cotto that would have me putting him up there with PBFs record up to now. Followed by PBF. If he beats PBFs then yes as i said Hatton will be up there. Hatton is ambitious, he wants to be the best, and believes in his ability to be the best. Being the best is a long journey and he is on the long road to it. Urango is the start.

Horseman - I've already said i think Hatton could have beaten PBFs opponents. To be fair i think PBF would have beaten Hattons opponents. So what i am saying is these 2 have to box. If Hatton boxs great opponents in his last quarter and then yes they will be as good as PBFS. And yes i mean fighting the likes of COtto and whoever there is out there. I said i think Hatton will do well in the last part of his career, and if he does he will be looked as favourably as PBF possibly. And i said that Collazo wont make Hatton an atg but Collazo hadnt been beaten for years, and he had a belt, i'll give Hatton as much respect for beating Collazo as i give PBF for doing a number on Baldy. And youre not all there in the head as well if you think Hatton being 2 weight champ and beating Kostya in the mix doesnt make Hatton a boxer who warrants a bit more respect than you are given. If hatton keeps up the good work in his next fights he will be great. If u care to read my first post in this thread i said, - "Its possible PBF will be an atg, but its possible Hatton will be an even bigger one than himself when his career is finished." Your reply is Hatton will never be an ATG. So, I dont think you are really understanding me. I said PBF was a great boxer. ATG is the next step up the ladder. PBF is very nearly there. So whatsup there? Like I've been saying, when will he prove it? You keep saying he COULD have beaten all Floyd's opponents, but he hasn't fought that caliber of fighter. You're trying to tell me that in his last few years of boxing, Hatton is going to fight a larger number of credible opponents than Floyd has? What I was telling you was that IMO Hatton will need to fight about 6 straight "very good" to "great" fighters to be on that level. Saying he could have beaten them means nothing in boxing. and Urango is not a very good start. Castillo really doesn't even do much for me at this point, although I would count that as a credible opponent. He'll be 29 and will have fought 2/3 (depending on what Collazo shows in the near future) good opponents. You say he could be higher up than Floyd, I say he's going to need the best 4 years of any fighter in the history of boxing to do it.

Answer http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/vlad_pintea/llewis.jpg?t=1168472729

Horseman - I've already said i think Hatton could have beaten PBFs opponents. To be fair i think PBF would have beaten Hattons opponents. So what i am saying is these 2 have to box. If Hatton boxs great opponents in his last quarter and then yes they will be as good as PBFS. And yes i mean fighting the likes of COtto and whoever there is out there. I said i think Hatton will do well in the last part of his career, and if he does he will be looked as favourably as PBF possibly. And i said that Collazo wont make Hatton an atg but Collazo hadnt been beaten for years, and he had a belt, i'll give Hatton as much respect for beating Collazo as i give PBF for doing a number on Baldy. And youre not all there in the head as well if you think Hatton being 2 weight champ and beating Kostya in the mix doesnt make Hatton a boxer who warrants a bit more respect than you are given. If hatton keeps up the good work in his next fights he will be great. If u care to read my first post in this thread i said, - "Its possible PBF will be an atg, but its possible Hatton will be an even bigger one than himself when his career is finished." Your reply is Hatton will never be an ATG. So, I dont think you are really understanding me. I said PBF was a great boxer. ATG is the next step up the ladder. PBF is very nearly there. So whatsup there? We'll see when Hatton fights Castillo.

Horseman - I've already said i think Hatton could have beaten PBFs opponents. To be fair i think PBF would have beaten Hattons opponents. So what i am saying is these 2 have to box. If Hatton boxs great opponents in his last quarter and then yes they will be as good as PBFS. And yes i mean fighting the likes of COtto and whoever there is out there. I said i think Hatton will do well in the last part of his career, and if he does he will be looked as favourably as PBF possibly. And i said that Collazo wont make Hatton an atg but Collazo hadnt been beaten for years, and he had a belt, i'll give Hatton as much respect for beating Collazo as i give PBF for doing a number on Baldy. And youre not all there in the head as well if you think Hatton being 2 weight champ and beating Kostya in the mix doesnt make Hatton a boxer who warrants a bit more respect than you are given. If hatton keeps up the good work in his next fights he will be great. If u care to read my first post in this thread i said, - "Its possible PBF will be an atg, but its possible Hatton will be an even bigger one than himself when his career is finished." Your reply is Hatton will never be an ATG. So, I dont think you are really understanding me. I said PBF was a great boxer. ATG is the next step up the ladder. PBF is very nearly there. So whatsup there?

Floyd is more skilled and better than the following people that are ranked in Ring's top 80 fighters of the last 80 years. kid chocolate kid gavilan fighting harada flash erode mike mccallum oscar de la hoya wilfred benitez felix trinidad he will eventually surpass b-hop sonny liston- yeah floyd has actually accomplished more than him pancho villa harold johnson

I said if Hatton does well in the final quarter of his career he will be remebered very favourably. Nothing wrong with Collazo at all as an opponent. Certainly as credible as Baldy. Collazo had a worthwhile belt, and so did Maussa if im correct. How can you criticize them as opponents? Hatton follows the belts and he won them, so u cant bicker about what Hatton has acheived there and who he has fought since Kostya. Those opponents Collazo and Maussa wont make Hatton an all time great, but it was definately worthwhile facing them. How can anyone claim otherwise? PBFS opponents i dont really warrant him an ATG yet. That is all i had a problem with. PBF is good. Very good. But i sit on the fence as to when he will prove that he is great as well. If he beats DLH and Hatton and then a clear up a bit more, and i would say yes. Absolutely I can criticize Maussa and Collazo. Maussa has lost 3 of his last 5 fights and one of the wins was against an opponent in his 1st professional fight. Belts don't always equal talent. Collazo is still up in the air. I feel that he is a decent boxer who could beat some guys, but not the top talent. He was one of the guys I include in the "handful of decent opponents" Hatton has fought. Are you seriously trying to say that if Hatton fights 5 more tough fighters then his competition will be greater than Floyd's? He's going to need wins against some names like Cotto, Corrales, Castillo, Witter, and a couple other big name guys to be put on that level. He's fighting a 34 year old Castillo compared to the 29 year old that Floyd fought as well. Like I asked before, When is he going to prove that he's great? And you're crazy if you think Floyd's competition doesn't prove that he's great.

Like I said, If Hatton fights 6 or 7 tough opponents in a row to finish his career then he can get some credit. But he's in his prime fighting guys like Maussa, Collazo and Urango. Not top competition. Floyd fought Castillo and Corrales, both of whom were on top of their divisions for a good part of the past 4-5 years. Those two are better than any two that Ricky has fought. Plus Floyd is fighting 2/3 divisions above his natural weight in May. No doubt Ricky is good, but when will he prove that he's great? I said if Hatton does well in the final quarter of his career he will be remebered very favourably. Nothing wrong with Collazo at all as an opponent. Certainly as credible as Baldy. Collazo had a worthwhile belt, and so did Maussa if im correct. How can you criticize them as opponents? Hatton follows the belts and he won them, so u cant bicker about what Hatton has acheived there and who he has fought since Kostya. Those opponents Collazo and Maussa wont make Hatton an all time great, but it was definately worthwhile facing them. How can anyone claim otherwise? PBFS opponents i dont really warrant him an ATG yet. That is all i had a problem with. PBF is good. Very good. But i sit on the fence as to when he will prove that he is great as well. If he beats DLH and Hatton and then a clear up a bit more, and i would say yes.

Which is why....he won't. :D The phrase, "All-Time-Great" is waaaay overused and abused. But I do think that his talent and skill is just so good that it compensates for alot. The truth is, he is just so disciplined that he really doesn't dare to be great. I think you need to dare to be great and assert yourself as a serious legend. He'll do that all night against a guy like Gatti who can't really fight on his level, but it would be shocking if he did that with someone on his level. I can see him hit and running the rest of his career, we've already seen what he's got. Just like Steward said, you wouldn't dare see that from Robinson or Leonard if they were winning that dominant. Why? Because they had heart, they had integrity, they had pride. Mayweather's integrity and pride is reserved for the night clubs and strip joints.

Will he? Yeah, no doubt. :thinking: But I think his perfect record will be more important to himself and not as much important to others. To me, you have to really test yourself against the best to be a great. Was Corrales a great? No, we all thought he would be a test because at the time we didn't really know how good he was. Was Castillo great? No, but he was exceptionally good. He also fell short of being that kind of talent that would truly test him. And don't give me that shit about how hard the first fight was, it's not tough until you are getting hit with more than one shot at a time. The fact is, his whole career has been a tight rope of brilliant matchmaking to preserve his record, and the greats don't do that. He tested himself against competition he knew he could beat. Ray Leonard, Duran, Robinson, those guys didn't do that. We never knew what he had inside of him, perhaps he doesn't want us to know. Arturo Gatti, give me a fucking break. Which is why....he won't. :D The phrase, "All-Time-Great" is waaaay overused and abused.

Will he? Yeah, no doubt. But I think his perfect record will be more important to himself and not as much important to others. To me, you have to really test yourself against the best to be a great. Was Corrales a great? No, we all thought he would be a test because at the time we didn't really know how good he was. Was Castillo great? No, but he was exceptionally good. He also fell short of being that kind of talent that would truly test him. And don't give me that shit about how hard the first fight was, it's not tough until you are getting hit with more than one shot at a time. The fact is, his whole career has been a tight rope of brilliant matchmaking to preserve his record, and the greats don't do that. He tested himself against competition he knew he could beat. Ray Leonard, Duran, Robinson, those guys didn't do that. We never knew what he had inside of him, perhaps he doesn't want us to know. Arturo Gatti, give me a fucking break.

In my honest opinion maybe not. Oscar deserves higher stature than PBF. Here's why . . . We all know that DLH is a 6 divisional Champ. He held eleven titles which included: WBO Middle Weight title WBC Light Middleweight Title; WBA Light Middleweight Title; IBA Light Middleweight Title WBC Welterweight Title; IBA Welterweight Title; IBF Welterweight Title WBC Light Welterweight Title WBO Lightweight Title; IBF Lightweight Title WBO Super Featherweight Title Hell, I'd list you as an ATG poster just for remembering all of those alpha-belts.