How Much Impact....

They say you're only as good as your last fight. Ali is one of the exceptions. Tyson has become a laughing stock due to his last fight. It just depends on who the fighter is. Some people say that, but it's really a bunch of crap when it comes to ranking the all-tiime great fighters of the sport. Look at how many great fighters fought on too long. It's the norm rather than the exception.

Think the losses that come late do affect the legacy slightly, but not too much. To me, the likes of Lennox Lewis & Ricardo Lopez get an extra few points for realizing that everything is downhill from now on, & hanging up the gloves. (interestingly, Tunney, who hung up his gloves at the top doesn't get much credit from people - almost too perfect a career & too smart for a lot people to deal with) There tends to be an immediate downgrading of the fighter once he begins to slide, with a lot of petty attacks, but once the fighter is properly retired & people look back on his career, there tends to be a pretty balanced view, focusing on their achievements when they were at their prime.

You don't need me to address it, bro. You know the score....and you're dealing with it. ;) For real, I'm gonna have to get Team Pinoy to cover me again. That's my muscle right there ;)

Yeah, I agree. Yo, you still hasn't addressed my delusions of being a target in the other thread. Tell them, I'm not crazy, people are on my dick. You don't need me to address it, bro. You know the score....and you're dealing with it. ;)

As I've stated before, Ali was my hero growing up. I loved him...still do. I can still remember watching him the night he lost to Spinks and asking my Dad, "Why doesn't he just knock him out, Dad?" He was invincible....which is why I watch the Holmes affair every now and then....to remind me that everybody gets it eventually, even the "Invincible Ali". :( A dose of truth every now and then is like bad tasting medicene that keeps you healthy, ya know. Yeah, I agree. Yo, you still hasn't addressed my delusions of being a target in the other thread. Tell them, I'm not crazy, people are on my dick.

I haven't seen the fight in it's entirety in about 3 years. I can't bring myself to do it, it bothers me every time. Ali is a hero to me, his way of doing him was very inspirational to me. Him and Naseem Hamed helped shape me the most personality wise when I was younger, go figure LOL As I've stated before, Ali was my hero growing up. I loved him...still do. I can still remember watching him the night he lost to Spinks and asking my Dad, "Why doesn't he just knock him out, Dad?" He was invincible....which is why I watch the Holmes affair every now and then....to remind me that everybody gets it eventually, even the "Invincible Ali". :( A dose of truth every now and then is like bad tasting medicene that keeps you healthy, ya know.

:( Couldn't agree more. I've got it on tape; and every now and then, when I feel the need to put things in perspective, I watch it.....hurts every time, man. Every damn time. I haven't seen the fight in it's entirety in about 3 years. I can't bring myself to do it, it bothers me every time. Ali is a hero to me, his way of doing him was very inspirational to me. Him and Naseem Hamed helped shape me the most personality wise when I was younger, go figure LOL

I agree, Ferdie Pacheco, though no longer in Ali's camp at that time, still said that under the circumstances, Ali was a "time bomb", that any number of medical conditions could've downed him for good. But I did perceive Holmes to be a puncher, atleast when he was in front of stationary targets. I dunno, it's immaterial now at this point, but it was a terrible way for Ali to go out. That fight should have been stopped after the 6th. To see Ali draped over the ropes like that following the uppercut and kidney shot, that was a crime against the sport itself. :( Couldn't agree more. I've got it on tape; and every now and then, when I feel the need to put things in perspective, I watch it.....hurts every time, man. Every damn time.

I think Nigel Benn ruined his legacy (to some extent) with the Collins debacles.

From what I've read about the effects of that specific medication...yes, it does make a difference. No one had eve knocked Ali out and Holmes wasn't a puncher. If Ali had been as close to 100% as he could have been in 1980, even at age 38, Holmes doesn't stop him...no way. Given the circumstances, the heat, and the effect of the medication, it's a small miracle he didn't have a stroke or worse. I agree, Ferdie Pacheco, though no longer in Ali's camp at that time, still said that under the circumstances, Ali was a "time bomb", that any number of medical conditions could've downed him for good. But I did perceive Holmes to be a puncher, atleast when he was in front of stationary targets. I dunno, it's immaterial now at this point, but it was a terrible way for Ali to go out. That fight should have been stopped after the 6th. To see Ali draped over the ropes like that following the uppercut and kidney shot, that was a crime against the sport itself.

I agree definitely, that the medicine was affecting him. But let's look at it in perspective. Here's a 38 year old fighter coming off 2 years layoff, went up to 260, and just split fights with a Leon Spinks who Holmes dusted off in 3. Was it really going to make a difference? From what I've read about the effects of that specific medication...yes, it does make a difference. No one had eve knocked Ali out and Holmes wasn't a puncher. If Ali had been as close to 100% as he could have been in 1980, even at age 38, Holmes doesn't stop him...no way. Given the circumstances, the heat, and the effect of the medication, it's a small miracle he didn't have a stroke or worse.

Supposedly, he was running well about three weeks before the fight, whenever he arrived in Vegas, and was actually looking good in his workouts. It was only afer he started taking the thyroid medicene that his energy left. I agree definitely, that the medicine was affecting him. But let's look at it in perspective. Here's a 38 year old fighter coming off 2 years layoff, went up to 260, and just split fights with a Leon Spinks who Holmes dusted off in 3. Was it really going to make a difference?

I don't think there was any way he was going the distance with Holmes, Holmes was too fast and too young. It was really sad to see that happen to a great fighter. In the Berbick fight, I actually thought he was winning early, but in all honesty Berbick wasn't much to speak of as far as being an athlete. Ali couldn't take the body shots all night, total nightmare once again. Ali was in better shape statistically against Holmes, but that was a product of the medicine and not legitimate fitness. He couldn't even run before the fight. Supposedly, he was running well about three weeks before the fight, whenever he arrived in Vegas, and was actually looking good in his workouts. It was only afer he started taking the thyroid medicene that his energy left.

More than likely, you are right; but Ali was supposedly in really good shape prior to taking the thorazine. All you have to do to get an idea of how much he was deteriorated because of that drug is look at the Berbick fight when he was overweight; but still a better fighter than he was against Holmes. If you get a chance to read Bill Ross's expose on what went on behind the scenes prior to Holmes-Ali, do it. It's a very informative read. For the record, I think the only difference would have been a more competitive Ali losing a Unanimous decision instead of what we saw. I don't think there was any way he was going the distance with Holmes, Holmes was too fast and too young. It was really sad to see that happen to a great fighter. In the Berbick fight, I actually thought he was winning early, but in all honesty Berbick wasn't much to speak of as far as being an athlete. Ali couldn't take the body shots all night, total nightmare once again. Ali was in better shape statistically against Holmes, but that was a product of the medicine and not legitimate fitness. He couldn't even run before the fight.

Nah, when Ali got on his toes, the second the jabs started coming again from Holmes, Ali was immobilized. There was no way in hell a 38 Ali wins that fight. Only way he wins that fight is if a black and white Cassius Clay entered the ring, outfeinted and boxed Holmes, and shook up the world with a decision. Other than that, total mismatch. More than likely, you are right; but Ali was supposedly in really good shape prior to taking the thorazine. All you have to do to get an idea of how much he was deteriorated because of that drug is look at the Berbick fight when he was overweight; but still a better fighter than he was against Holmes. If you get a chance to read Bill Ross's expose on what went on behind the scenes prior to Holmes-Ali, do it. It's a very informative read. For the record, I think the only difference would have been a more competitive Ali losing a Unanimous decision instead of what we saw.

They say you're only as good as your last fight. Ali is one of the exceptions. Tyson has become a laughing stock due to his last fight. It just depends on who the fighter is.

:( Yeah. The whole thing saddens me a great deal even to this day. I don't think a 38 year old Ali would have beaten Holmes without the thorazine, because he was also taking "el dopa" for his parkinsons syndrone; but it wouldn't have ended like it did. And who knows? With Ali, who had sparred countless rounds with Holmes and knew him so well, without letting Holmes truly "know" him in the sparring sessions due to his voluntary clowning and such, maybe he did know something. If there was a plan he had that would have made it closer and maybe even earned him a slim victory, it would have revolved around Holmes vulnerability to the right cross IMO....that and the movement. In the one round when Ali actually got on his toes and faintly resembled himself, the 8th, you could envision the kind of problems Holmes would have had with a mobile Ali whose jab was on. Could he have done it had he not been on the thorazine? We'll honestly never know. Nah, when Ali got on his toes, the second the jabs started coming again from Holmes, Ali was immobilized. There was no way in hell a 38 Ali wins that fight. Only way he wins that fight is if a black and white Cassius Clay entered the ring, outfeinted and boxed Holmes, and shook up the world with a decision. Other than that, total mismatch.

Up until that bullshit thyroid medicine that the Herbert Muhammad's quack gave him that started messing with his metabolic system. Before the fight, Howard Bingham said that he was going to bet it all on Ali, and Ali himself said don't, something is wrong. :( Yeah. The whole thing saddens me a great deal even to this day. I don't think a 38 year old Ali would have beaten Holmes without the thorazine, because he was also taking "el dopa" for his parkinsons syndrone; but it wouldn't have ended like it did. And who knows? With Ali, who had sparred countless rounds with Holmes and knew him so well, without letting Holmes truly "know" him in the sparring sessions due to his voluntary clowning and such, maybe he did know something. If there was a plan he had that would have made it closer and maybe even earned him a slim victory, it would have revolved around Holmes vulnerability to the right cross IMO....that and the movement. In the one round when Ali actually got on his toes and faintly resembled himself, the 8th, you could envision the kind of problems Holmes would have had with a mobile Ali whose jab was on. Could he have done it had he not been on the thorazine? We'll honestly never know.

Ali thought he could beat Holmes and Holyfield does believe he can still do it....for whatever that's worth. Up until that bullshit thyroid medicine that the Herbert Muhammad's quack gave him that started messing with his metabolic system. Before the fight, Howard Bingham said that he was going to bet it all on Ali, and Ali himself said don't, something is wrong.

You mention Larry Holmes, and Bernard Hopkins they had to believe they could win those fights right? I mean, if a fighter is shot, he has to know it right? Like Holyfield, everyone thinks he should hang it up. But he continues on. Is he hoping to win another title? Or does he really think he has some left in the tank? Holyfield is delusional. He thinks he can unify all the belts. How long would that take? He'd be like 50 and have 10 more kids by the time that would all clear up!