First of all I have to say that was a great fight. It far exceeded my expectations. I give credit not only to Toney's exciting counterpunching but also Ruiz's insistance on fighting in a crowd pleasing manner. In losing, he may have gotten more respect than he would have in winning his usual way. That is not to say I think he could beat Toney by clinching. No, Toney is head and shoulders above Ruiz.
HOWEVER, some of the comments by RJJ were ridiculous. James Toney would have his way with Vitali? Vitali, who is so big and so strong and a sound tacticion himself? Let's put Toney's performance in perspective.
Toney fought a great fight and Ruiz very rarely landed anything memorable. However, he did enjoy some success with his jab and John Ruiz does not have an especially good jab. Vitali does. If Ruiz was able to establish his jab, then Vitali will as well. Common sense. Vitali has a better and harder jab than Ruiz, and he is much taller on top of that. Vitali's jab and height alone will present some formidable challenges for the 5'9" Toney.
As far as looking at Toney as a heavyweight, I don't buy it. He will always be a blown up middleweight. I don't care what he weighed when he played football. I was 215 pounds in HS with 17" biceps and a 46" chest. I consider myself a natural light heavyweight. Perhaps even a super middleweight if I were to get into great shape, and would never entertain the notion of fighting as a heavyweight.
Fighting shape and football shape are very very different things. Anthony Mundine plays rugby. Do you think the guy weighs 168 when doing so? I don't. I would guess he's 190 on the field AT LEAST.
Let's look at the evidence. Ruiz got the better of every single clinch. True, most of the time Toney just let himself get pushed back but there were times when Toney tried to resist and muscle his way in and Ruiz easily shoved him back. Ruiz has fair strength at heavyweight, but he has nothing on Vitali, one of the physically strongest fighters I've ever seen.
Punching power? Toney's has nothing to brag about at heavyweight. He landed nearly 60% of his power punches, many of them flush right hands to Ruiz's chin, and he only hurt Ruiz on a few occasions. Pretty good for a middleweight right, stunning a natural heavyweight and all? Yeah, except he isn't fighting at middleweight. He's supposed to be a heavyweight and when you land 60% of your power punches (most of them swift counterpunches that Ruiz didnt even SEE) on an opponent and you don't score one legit knockdown, you can't seriously call yourself a power puncher.
What Toney does have on his side are possibly the swiftest hands in the division right now, a solid chin that withstood some decent heavyweight shots (I wouldn't call it granite at HW until he eats a good shot by a real puncher), and awesome defensive skills. His parries were remarkable in how casual yet effective they were. Oh yeah, and ring generalship.
Toney knows the score in there. He's knows when to go easy and take a breather and when to go nuts and take some respect (but never getting carried away or emotional). He is calm and punches accurately with speed and fluidity. He is P4P the best heavyweight (albeit a false one) since Roy Jones decided to dip his feet into the division's water.
Toney impressed me a lot and I think a Vitali match would be an entertaining affair that he has a slight shot at if only because of Vitali's lack of stamina. However to think he would be favored in that fight, or that he could possibly hurt Vitali, is a foolish assumption. Vitali is just too big and too smart to allow a small heavyweight like Toney to fight his fight.
You mean all 8 cuts?...Yes all cause by punches
And stop trying to group my posts with that of others. It's cheap, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised
Hey when Championship fights start getting scheduled for 6 rounds let me know.
Your right, but someone should've told Lewis that. Because that's how he kept his belt
here we go all the vitlai haters r now gonna bring up lennox lewis in a toney-vitali thread. and yes byrd is quicker and slicker then toney at heavy dude.
yeah mundine apparently weighed almost 190lbs when playing for st george/illawara. mundine is a very professional athelete, don't know about toney though.
58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali
Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004
Finished?
Hey when Championship fights start getting scheduled for 6 rounds let me know.
I haven't seen the fight but was the cut actually caused by a punch?
You mean all 8 cuts?...Yes all cause by punches
If Vitali got hurt from missing punches against Bryd???
Can you even imagine how many punches Toney would slip?
Vitali would win if he didn't injure himself, but I think the chance of him hurting himself is HUGE!!!!
58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali
Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004
Finished?
I agree that Vitali was winning the fight at the point that the fight was stopped...but Lennox was landing monsterous punches in the 5th and 6th and if the fight would have gone on Vitali may have been badly hurt. Not to mention that Vitali fought the worst out of shape Lennox possible.
58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali
Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004
Finished?
Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.
Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.
http://youknowtheysay.com/images/_39193006_cut203.jpg
If that's not finishing what he started, I don't know what it is.
Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.
Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.
GOOD POST!
but we have seen Vitali in with a much smaller slick boxer and well...things didn't exactly go well for him that night.
Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.
Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.
I can realize how many people think Toney would stand a chance. He does possess more skill than Vitali, he just lacks the size and experience in the heavyweight division. Im not saying Vitali has fought much better fighters, but they were real heavyweights however. Toney could concievably win the fight, If he were to somehow counter everything Vitali throws. My only problem with this...is his attitude in the ring. He thinks he is superior to everyone he fights, and that might catch up with him. If you noticed, in the Ruiz fight he was clowning around and playing opossum the entire time. Yes that worked against huggy bear.....but how in the hell would he manage to pull that off against the giant. For one, Vitali is extremely cautious. He would not try and overpower Toney like Ruiz did.....leaning foward on all of his punches.
Vitali likes to fight tall....and that could be a disadvantage, but I dont think so. If Toney were to lay against the ropes, that would spell doom for him. Klitschko would test him with the jab, and throw straight right hands at him. Who really cares if the land flush at first....that does not matter. What really does matter, is that he breaks opponents down systematically. Toney would need to lose alot of weight, more than likely 20+ pounds in order to be ready for the fight. Danny Williams, who I think hits harder than Toney blew up before the Klitschko fight. His mobility was affected, and he was a sitting duck.
I just dont think Toney has the lateral movement to escape Vitali's punches......because remember. Vitali does let his hands go. Toney has yet to fight a heavyweight that hits as hard....or is as active.
I really think Toney would get KTFO horribly.
Some of you are saying Toney would K.O. Vitali........And I think that is some stupid shit personally.
LOL. Yeah, I said in another thread how the only people I see saying Toney is so badass, will KO Vitali, and whatever other crazy shit is on boxingscene. I've yet to hear someone in the real world say that stupid shit. I think it's more that there's so many VK-haters than actual Toney fans.
ya vitali has a L next to chris byrd but u cant change the fact that with 1 ARM he was still outboxing a prime byrd who is quicker and slicker then james toney. i give toney no chance at all unless vitali gets hurt again or cut or drugged
Byrd is not slicker or quicker than Toney. You also cannot deny the fact when the going got tough for him he quit on his stool.
Drugged? come on now
ya vitali has a L next to chris byrd but u cant change the fact that with 1 ARM he was still outboxing a prime byrd who is quicker and slicker then james toney. i give toney no chance at all unless vitali gets hurt again or cut or drugged
I can realize how many people think Toney would stand a chance. He does possess more skill than Vitali, he just lacks the size and experience in the heavyweight division. Im not saying Vitali has fought much better fighters, but they were real heavyweights however. Toney could concievably win the fight, If he were to somehow counter everything Vitali throws. My only problem with this...is his attitude in the ring. He thinks he is superior to everyone he fights, and that might catch up with him. If you noticed, in the Ruiz fight he was clowning around and playing opossum the entire time. Yes that worked against huggy bear.....but how in the hell would he manage to pull that off against the giant. For one, Vitali is extremely cautious. He would not try and overpower Toney like Ruiz did.....leaning foward on all of his punches.
Vitali likes to fight tall....and that could be a disadvantage, but I dont think so. If Toney were to lay against the ropes, that would spell doom for him. Klitschko would test him with the jab, and throw straight right hands at him. Who really cares if the land flush at first....that does not matter. What really does matter, is that he breaks opponents down systematically. Toney would need to lose alot of weight, more than likely 20+ pounds in order to be ready for the fight. Danny Williams, who I think hits harder than Toney blew up before the Klitschko fight. His mobility was affected, and he was a sitting duck.
I just dont think Toney has the lateral movement to escape Vitali's punches......because remember. Vitali does let his hands go. Toney has yet to fight a heavyweight that hits as hard....or is as active.
I really think Toney would get KTFO horribly.
Some of you are saying Toney would K.O. Vitali........And I think that is some stupid shit personally.
Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
Yea IF they were the same size but the fact is they are not. Toney is naturally a smaller guy and we still dont know how he'll stand up to a 250 lb powerpuncher.
but we have seen Vitali in with a much smaller slick boxer and well...things didn't exactly go well for him that night.
Yea IF they were the same size but the fact is they are not. Toney is naturally a smaller guy and we still dont know how he'll stand up to a 250 lb powerpuncher.
Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.
What are you talking about? James Toney has more than proven his boxing skills and his abillity to disect a fighter over the past 15 years in this sport. The guy has come up from 160lbs I think its safe to say he isn't afraid of fighting bigger guys.
as far as Viltai fighting MANY guys that doesn't mean those guys are good. Because FACTS are FACTS the two best fighters Vitali has fought he's LOST to and Vitali has never fought a boxer like James Toney.
If these two guys were the same size it wouldn't be up for debate who would win.
Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.
exactly. this doo Jose is so joy, happy jest cuz Toney won against Ruiz. John fuckin Ruiz, man. After the Ruiz fight, some people think here Toney is the king of heavyweight.
Lets all be realistic and not be delusional! Vitali would knockout Toney. It would be difficult for Toney to come inside Vitali and land his shots because Vitali will keep him away wit his jabs and straight rights.
21y ago
Toney-Ruiz and why JT won't beat V-Klitschko | BoxingScene Community