hagler vs jones

Hey Palma how's it going bud. Yeah it's me, Sonny. I just felt like a change. Everything is going pretty good here in Sonny land. I'm enjoying watching the growth of taylor and Cotto. I think these two are going to be a great shot in the arm to boxing. That's great news about your boys! I'll be sure to have ring side seats when your boys are fighting for the title. ;) You take care!

A prime Marvelous Marvin Hagler KOs Roy Jones Jr. in the final rounds. Though Jones was a little bit faster he never came close to the accuracy Hagler had in his punches. Marvin's jab is superior to the strange thing with which Roy set up his hooks. Jones had some serious power at middleweight but he never KOed a fighter who had a granite chin like Hagler. Jones chin, the other way round, in his prime is a little bit questionable as it was never really tested but I think everyone agrees that it is no way near Marvins. So Hagler should be be able to KO Jones if he's given the opportunity. Jones fought the best of his era so did Marvin. The problem is that Jones fought in a pretty weak era. His best wins came against Toney and Hopkins. Toney not well conditioned and Hopkins not yet in his prime. Marvin fought the likes of Hearns, Mugabi, Antuofermo, Briscoe, Monroe, Hamsho, Duran and so on. While Jones had to spend years fighting anyone with boxing gloves Marvin consistently fought A-class fighters. Jones was everyones darling, everybody aknowlegded his skills and his talent, his greatness was never questioned. Marvin instead never really got the respect he deserved. He'd have a totally different motivation coming into that fight then Jones. Jones was regarded one of the best p4p fighters of all time in his prime, Hagler got overlooked most of the time. A prime Hagler would've fought for his life and his career, for the big paydays and a place in history that he (rightly so) felt belongs to him. While it would be just another big fight for Roy it'd be the fight of a lifetime for Hagler. Marvin certainly is the better technician hands down. But he proved that he could handle akward or unusual fighters. In fact it wouldn't be so much upon to Marvin to adapt but to Roy since he'd never be allowed to keep his right down or rush in in spectacular fashion. Marvin was a very clever fight who would have no problem in takeing advantage of all the little faults in Roys boxing interpretation. Roy would have to change his style a little bit, he'd have to box more conservative. Hagler was alway top conditioned and if the fight went 12 rounds Ray would be able to go full pace all the way as well. Rays problem here might be his concentration. While Hagler was in a different zone once the bell rang Roy had these little moments where he didn't seem to pay enough attention. That doesn't hurt if you fight Vinny Pazienza or Danny Garcia but it could end the fight if you're in the ring with Marvin. The question would be if the middleweight Jones could maintain his concentration for the whole fight. In his middleweight days Roy like to come forward against Hagler he would've to change his normal gameplane. And the biggest weakness in Roys repertoire was his defense that relied on speed and reflexes. Once he meets a fighter as fast and as accurate as Hagler he will not be able to make him miss without getting hurt. As I've stated before a prime Hagler could've KOed a prime Jones if he hits him clean. Now if Roy counterpunches and tries to punish the pressuring Hagler he faces the problem that Hagler had power in every shot he threw and that Marvin could threw any shot ever seen in a boxing ring in balance and beauty. Roy would not be able to read Marvin as he had tons of variations could box north- and soutpole nearly equally efficent and had a great jab to make things happen. If Roy tries to go to war the fight ends quick as he'd not be able to hurt Marvin (not even a Hearns right could) and Marvin would KO him. Roy doesn't want to fight inside against Hagler. But if he stays outside Hagler still has the better jab and the way better workrate. Plus Jones wasn't to happy retreating and Marvin was very hard to read. How would Roy react when he realizes that he isn't in control of the fight? If he's not able to showboat and play with his opponent? Would he rush in and try to force something? I don't think since Roy way a pretty intelligent fighter but he'd surley get frustrated by the consistence and quality of Hagler. The more frustrated you get the higher risks you take and Roy can't afford to miss one of his jumping rights against Hagler. In the end Marvin is the better fight and worker, has an advantage inside and outside, has more motivation and more experience. He'll dominate the fight and stop Roy late. If the bout went to the cards he'd get cheated bad for a third time.

hagler will get to jones...

Sonny is that you?? Haven't seen one of your threads in a while now. How are things? Hey Palma how's it going bud. Yeah it's me, Sonny. I just felt like a change. Everything is going pretty good here in Sonny land. I'm enjoying watching the growth of taylor and Cotto. I think these two are going to be a great shot in the arm to boxing.

Roy doesn't really have a weak chin in his prime. He messed up his whole body when he came down from heavyweight, and that perfect shot by Tarver (which would never have caught Roy had Roy not been 35 and did damage to his body by losing muscle) also permanently affected Roy's ability to resist concussion. Against Hagler, who's not as big a punhcer as Ruiz or Tarver, nor is he a tall counter-puncher like Tarver, I don't see Hagler being able to get to Roy enough to win the fight. Roy just knows how to get out of the way and use the ring and his feet to do so. Might be, my friend, might be ;)

hmm Roy doesn't really have a weak chin in his prime. He messed up his whole body when he came down from heavyweight, and that perfect shot by Tarver (which would never have caught Roy had Roy not been 35 and did damage to his body by losing muscle) also permanently affected Roy's ability to resist concussion. Against Hagler, who's not as big a punhcer as Ruiz or Tarver, nor is he a tall counter-puncher like Tarver, I don't see Hagler being able to get to Roy enough to win the fight. Roy just knows how to get out of the way and use the ring and his feet to do so.

Jones was so confident and a monster at 160...not sure if Hagler would have won How can anyone be sure? If you ask any old guy, they would say Hagler. Ask any young guy, and he probobly would say Jones. Well, due to scientific development of all sports over the years, boxing today is far more advanced than 25 years ago. So is football, soccer, skijumping etc. Therefore it would be logical to say that the best fighters today would beat the best fighters of yesterday. A fast runner in the 60's would be a slow runner today, right? A strong puncher in the 60's would be average today, right? Well, those things can make it seem like an obvious choice when it really isn't. Because however you look at it, there's some things that doesn't develop themselves in boxing. Heart, for example. And chin. Talent... Those are the things we look at when we pick a great yesterday-fighter to beat a great modern-day fighter, because surely there would be a no-contest in terms of strength, speed and general boxing understanding? When it comes to endurance, modern day fighters have technology, methods, eating habits, powder to help increase stamina etc. Hence it would be foolish to think that the stamina would present a problem for the modern-day fighter. That is why we have to rely on chin, heart and talent if we pick the old guy to win over the new guy, isn't it? So when it comes down to Jones and Hagler, the one place we have to aim for if we're going to pick Hagler to win, would have to be Jones' weak chin right? I think Hagler had the pressure style needed to get to Roy's chin, and he had the chin to actually withstand the superior speed, power, technique and endurance Jones possessed. Some of you might say that he could outwork Jones to earn a point decision, but I belive the chin is the reason for that. If Roy had a great chin, he wouldn't have to be worried about counter-attacks would he? Therefore he could let his hands go in a faster, harder pace than Hagler to prevent Hagler from outworking him, right? Yes, but Roy doesn't have the great chin, does he? I think the only reason Hagler could win is because of chin and mental toughness. But I think it's such an significant part of boxing that I would have to favor Hagler in a match-up 8 times out of 10. In a boxing exhibition, Roy wins hands down. Amateur fight, same result. Professional price-fighting over 12-15 rounds, Hagler by narrow margin.

Hearns is a tall and bigger puncher than Jones but he still got creamed by marvelous marv. Hagler had a close loss to a moving spitfire like Leonard. What I mean here is he was able to handle a big hitter and a fast defensive specialist. A prime Hagler will beat Jones through sheer patience and pressure. Hagler by UD or late stoppage. :)

Jones was so confident and a monster at 160...not sure if Hagler would have won

hmmmmm, er.... mmmmmmm.... errrrm.... Jones.... maybe No, no, Jones definatly!

Jones would easily outpoint hagler. Jones is bigger, faster and stronger. The only area Hagler wins in is his chin. Sonny is that you?? Haven't seen one of your threads in a while now. How are things?

Back in the day, Marvelous Marvin was my favorite fighter. Very technical, gifted with skills, smarts and big heart. But there's no way he beats a prime Roy Jones. I don't think even prime Sugar Ray Robinson could do it (admittedly I've never seen SRR live, only old tapes). Hagler was the best middleweight of the late 70's - early 80's, Roy Jones may have been the most talented boxer the world has ever seen. I don't want to sound like a nut-hugger, but there's a difference between the best fighter in a decade and a once-in-a-lifetime talent, and Roy was the latter...

also I should add that prime Hagler beats the version of Leonard that "won" against him in Hagler's last fight.

close fight. its kinda hard to call but i'd have Hagler winning by a REAL REAL close decision :boxing:

I don't know if I could pick Hagler to beat Roy, and I don't know that you could pick Roy to beat Hagler, but that's ok. I think we can agree however that it would be a fight worth seeing and anyone who thinks Roy would win "easily" is more than a little off and obviously simplifying things way too much. Agreed. It'd be a great fight.

hmm I agree with you on some points. I do not think it would be easy for either man. I agree that Jones' technique was "different". It was not "textbook" but it was pretty artful and VERY effective. Jones has great stamina in his prime and his ability to avoid punches was awesome, one of the best ever, so I just don't think Hagler would be able to land the punches neccessary to TKO him. As far as Hopkins goes, I don't neccessarily think a rematch with Roy would have been a toss-up. I think people underestimate Roy's ability to adapt, and also the fact that Roy certainly learned some more things in his career post-Hopkins as well. Certainly he did not gain as much knowledge and use it as Hopkins did in the following years, but he had to have gained something. Personally, I just think the fight LOOKS different, but ends with the same score. It's a more organized fight, with both fighters looking better, and Roy coasting less and still winning 8-4. That's just my opinion. I don't know if I could pick Hagler to beat Roy, and I don't know that you could pick Roy to beat Hagler, but that's ok. I think we can agree however that it would be a fight worth seeing and anyone who thinks Roy would win "easily" is more than a little off and obviously simplifying things way too much.

Hagler never faced anyone like Roy either, let's not forget. No one as fast or with the amount of footspeed and pure athleticism. Ray comes close, but not there. Let me add, I do know the Hagler of his prime. Hagler is one of my favorite all-time fighters. However, anyone who thinks he would beat the taller and bigger and faster Jones by OUTBOXING him is simply off his rocker. No way that would happen. He would HAVE to get close and rough him up. These statements are exaggerations and much to simplified. Toney would not beat Jones in his prime just due to style. Toney was unmotivated for many fights in his career...that's JAMES TONEY. Saying that Toney was dehydrated is a more legitimate excuse, but given his history vs other fighters not as good as Roy, Roy beats Toney in their primes every time. As for Hopkins, he was definitely near his prime when he fought Jones. He certainly was in his prime physically, but did not have the boxing knowledge at that age that he did at 35. In any case, Hopkins was not "nowhere near his prime", that's simply too much of an exaggeration. I agree he was not at his best, but the win is still very noteworthy. I wouldn't try to take anything away from Hagler by using revisionist history and try to say he only beat a man smaller than him in Hearns. It was still a good win. No doubt Hagler never faced a fighter like Roy. Leonard was weaker and a bit less physically gifted...however he was much more clever and more ring savvy. If you knew about your boy Roy you'd be able to admit that his technique is extremely sloppy. He backs up off balance and often left his hands down around his waist. Now i'm not saying Hagler would outbox Roy...but he could certainly box with him. He'd make him pay for many of his mistakes that lesser fighters could not. Theres no doubt that Hagler would have to press Roy...Hagler was one of the best pressure fighters ever...his workrate was menacing. He wouldn't just throw himself at Roy...he'd squander his very overlooked boxing ability if he did that. My statements about Toney and Hopkins were vague but true. I don't think a prime Toney would beat a prime Roy either...unless of course he just went for broke and caught him with something nasty. Toney was very unmotivated for their fight however, and although that's Toney's thing, it didn't help his chances in that fight. The Hopkins that beat Trinidad was your "prime" Hopkins. Half of what makes Hopkins so great is his in-ring savvy and knowledge of the game. When he fought Roy he was still somewhat inexperienced. Roy beat him 8-4...had you shifted time around and made the fight in their respective primes then you'd see a much closer fight. Those are Roy's 2 most notable wins...and as good as they are, they kinda came for the wrong time for the other guys. A 12 round fight would certainly benefit Roy. Being that you just don't hurt or tire Hagler, Roy could certainly do his thing and last to see it go to the cards. 15 rounds is almost definitely too much for Roy to stay away and avoid taking punishment. I still say that Hagler would slowly sap Roy's energy and take him out by the later rounds in a 12 round bout...either way you look at it, it'd be a grind for both guys. Anyone who says this is an easy fight either way is delusional.

I agree that Jones would win this fight easily. That's not a knock on Hagler. Jones would neutralize Haglers pressing attack, Jones was a pretty good inside fighter, and knew how to keep safe in there. I don't know if he would stop Hagler, but it is not crazy to think he could be put down with a flash knockdown. Jones' speed is just a bit too much.

lol Hagler never faced anyone like Roy either, let's not forget. No one as fast or with the amount of footspeed and pure athleticism. Ray comes close, but not there. Let me add, I do know the Hagler of his prime. Hagler is one of my favorite all-time fighters. However, anyone who thinks he would beat the taller and bigger and faster Jones by OUTBOXING him is simply off his rocker. No way that would happen. He would HAVE to get close and rough him up. Toney was rather unmotivated and Hopkins was nowhere near his prime. These statements are exaggerations and much to simplified. Toney would not beat Jones in his prime just due to style. Toney was unmotivated for many fights in his career...that's JAMES TONEY. Saying that Toney was dehydrated is a more legitimate excuse, but given his history vs other fighters not as good as Roy, Roy beats Toney in their primes every time. As for Hopkins, he was definitely near his prime when he fought Jones. He certainly was in his prime physically, but did not have the boxing knowledge at that age that he did at 35. In any case, Hopkins was not "nowhere near his prime", that's simply too much of an exaggeration. I agree he was not at his best, but the win is still very noteworthy. I wouldn't try to take anything away from Hagler by using revisionist history and try to say he only beat a man smaller than him in Hearns. It was still a good win.

Well I'll tell you what Buster, you ARE blind if you don't recognize Jones' greatness in his prime, just like I'd be the same if I said something that amazingly stupid about Hagler. Hagler is a beast, but it doesn't matter how tough you are if you cannot IMPOSE that toughness, and with Jones' speed I doubt Hagler would be able to impose it enough to win. Hagler was not a one-punch ko guy and Jones is bigger than Hagler, and would get hit no where NEAR enough to get KO'd. You must have images of Hearns getting waxed...that won't apply to Roy. You must have images of the older, worn out Hagler. He was a great counter puncher, had a great jab, threw punches from all angles, and could box/brawl with the best of them. Jones would have to be perfect to outpoint Hagler. Jones fought no one near Hagler status in that prime of his. Toney was rather unmotivated and Hopkins was nowhere near his prime.