Is a Champion still a Champion if?

The man makes the belt, not vice versa. Once he's won one, it's all about his fights. Simply havin a belt don't make you a true champion.

I think you need to go brush up on your boxing history because that is NOT what happend.. In 1992 HBO paid a ton of money to get the 4 best heavyweight in the world in a tournement to unify the belts. Fighters were Lennox Lewis Evander Holyfdield Razor Ruddock Riddick Bowe. The first round match ups were. Holyfield vs Bowe. Lewis vs Rudock. They all signed the same contract. They would fight and then the winners would fight eachother early next year. Lewis and Bowe both won. Bowe pulled out of a contract he signed to fight Lewis. Bowe did not take on better fighters or go for "more luctrative fights" instead he opted to fight Micheal Dokes and Jesse Furgeson two underserving fighters. The difference between what Lewis and what Bowe did was Lewis went after better fighters not easier fighters. He gave up the WBA belt because Akinwande was his #1 a fighter he already beat. Akinwande was going to fight Holyfield for the vancant belt, but he got sick and Ruiz was put in as #1 because Don King bought it for him. Lewis gave up the WBA belt to fight Micheal Grant the guy thought to be the second best heavyweight on the planet at the time and a Lewis/Grant fight was by far the best fight at the time. Lewis gave up the IBF belt to get the fight with Tyson done. Lewis/Tyson was by far the biggest heavyweight fight of the past 15 years. One guy gave up his belts for easier fights and the other gave up belts to make better fights. and no, sorry no one thought John Ruiz and Chris Byrd were dangerous fights Except Lummox Lewis.

Agreed! So, a duck is a duck and Jose is the one who needs a history lesson. The end.

IMO - there is no excuse for dropping a belt. There is plenty of time to make money fights between mandatory defenses. It is the boxers choice to fight only his mandatory opponents and fight only once a year. I don't buy the monetary excuse. IMO - when a boxers gives up a belt, they are crapping on ancient sport that was originally based on pride, courage, integrity and dignity. Boxers fought for these reasons alone. This is the spirit of the sport. IMO - nowadays money plays a role in the sport, but that role should end at mandatory defense of a title. If you decide to be Champion based solely on money, you don't deserve to be called a champion.

Actually, back in 1992 during a promotion involving the so-called heavyweight championship tournament, Riddick Bowe was not happy with the WBC mandatory which he was saddled with so he dumped their title into a trashcan rather than defend it against Lennox Lewis. Bowe said that there were more lucrative fights out there and his career wasn't going to be mandated by an organization who would put anyone as their top contender. Lewis said that Bowe was a coward and that Bowe dumped the title in order to duck him. Bowe said it was a smart business decision. Fast forward to July of 2000...Lennox Lewis is stripped of the WBA heavyweight title for refusing to fight mandatory contender John Ruiz. Now, fast forward to September 2002 where Lewis avoids a potential distasterous match with Chris Byrd by vacating the IBF heavyweight belt. Of course, Lennox Lewis says that both instances were "business" decisions. The same thing that Riddick Bowe said in 1992 and Lennox called him a "coward". A duck is a duck and real champions don't duck opponents. I think you need to go brush up on your boxing history because that is NOT what happend.. In 1992 HBO paid a ton of money to get the 4 best heavyweight in the world in a tournement to unify the belts. Fighters were Lennox Lewis Evander Holyfdield Razor Ruddock Riddick Bowe. The first round match ups were. Holyfield vs Bowe. Lewis vs Rudock. They all signed the same contract. They would fight and then the winners would fight eachother early next year. Lewis and Bowe both won. Bowe pulled out of a contract he signed to fight Lewis. Bowe did not take on better fighters or go for "more luctrative fights" instead he opted to fight Micheal Dokes and Jesse Furgeson two underserving fighters. The difference between what Lewis and what Bowe did was Lewis went after better fighters not easier fighters. He gave up the WBA belt because Akinwande was his #1 a fighter he already beat. Akinwande was going to fight Holyfield for the vancant belt, but he got sick and Ruiz was put in as #1 because Don King bought it for him. Lewis gave up the WBA belt to fight Micheal Grant the guy thought to be the second best heavyweight on the planet at the time and a Lewis/Grant fight was by far the best fight at the time. Lewis gave up the IBF belt to get the fight with Tyson done. Lewis/Tyson was by far the biggest heavyweight fight of the past 15 years. One guy gave up his belts for easier fights and the other gave up belts to make better fights. and no, sorry no one thought John Ruiz and Chris Byrd were dangerous fights

Hum interesting. :confused:

Yes, if he is the undisupted champion he sometimes calls the shots. I.E. Bernard Hopkins. Interesting quote since Lewis' first title (the WBC version) was plucked out of a trashcan handed to him while he was on a beach in Jamaica. That's what we in the business call a "paper champion". He was never undisputed. Lummox Lewis' legacy will always be ripe with controversy, beating up old, washed-up fighters and dodging the challenges of some of the contenders. Oh, and Bernard Hopkins did exactly what Don King told him to do up until the beginning of 2004 when his contract expired with DK Promotions. Remember Morrade Hakkar? C'mon! Hopkins didn't want to defend against that guy! Hakkar was a nobody, yet somehow was ranked #1. There were better fights out there, but he had no choice due to promotional stipulations. So, don't feed me the Hopkins line unless you've done your homework. Enough said...end of discussion.

Yes, if he is the undisupted champion he sometimes calls the shots. I.E. Bernard Hopkins.

A duck is a duck. Unless it's a chicken

depends on each individual situation. Often it is said Lennox lewis ducked Chris Byrd and John Ruiz, which really I find a bit of a no brainer, he didnt duck them they werent financially viable fights to anybody (tv co's lewis, promoters) compared to Holyfield / tysons of the world. Actually, back in 1992 during a promotion involving the so-called heavyweight championship tournament, Riddick Bowe was not happy with the WBC mandatory which he was saddled with so he dumped their title into a trashcan rather than defend it against Lennox Lewis. Bowe said that there were more lucrative fights out there and his career wasn't going to be mandated by an organization who would put anyone as their top contender. Lewis said that Bowe was a coward and that Bowe dumped the title in order to duck him. Bowe said it was a smart business decision. Fast forward to July of 2000...Lennox Lewis is stripped of the WBA heavyweight title for refusing to fight mandatory contender John Ruiz. Now, fast forward to September 2002 where Lewis avoids a potential distasterous match with Chris Byrd by vacating the IBF heavyweight belt. Of course, Lennox Lewis says that both instances were "business" decisions. The same thing that Riddick Bowe said in 1992 and Lennox called him a "coward". A duck is a duck and real champions don't duck opponents.

That was the problem people had with having Vitali as the "champ": he hadn't necessarily proved that he was the best fighter in the division. The problem is that, beyond some weak fighers, DK messes everything up with his stranglehold over the top contenders. He parades around a bunch of so-so guys and calls them champions, yet he won't put any of them up against Vitali except weaker guys that have little chance of beating him, like Rachman. After Hasim's last fight, I agree with this match-up. Hasim did beat Lewis, and he looked great in his last fight. Would I rather see VK fight another belt holder? YES. But this is just Don King hoping he can control the HW division. DK protects his assets well, too well sometimes.

I think Byrd would give him problems, regardless of their first fight, Byrd has improved since then. I dunno, I think he's gotten worse. he needs to be the Undisputed champ, then he can tell all the belt organizations to kiss his ass. I think getting their belts is him conforming to their ways. Plus, King will never give Ruiz and Byrd to Klitschko.

I guess I have to pick him as number one.... Does that mean he can beat anybody in the HW division, maybe not. I think Byrd would give him problems, regardless of their first fight, Byrd has improved since then. I think the HW division consists of Moe, Larry and Curly. No domenate force. If VK really wants to be the champ, he needs to be the Undisputed champ, then he can tell all the belt organizations to kiss his ass. Just like Lewis did. When your on top like Lewis, you call the shots. Just because somebody strips you of your belt doesn't count as a loss. If you are on top, the only way down is to be beat. There is nobody on the summit of the HW division right now, we just measure who is closest. BHop is on the top, Kostya is on top etc.... That was the problem people had with having Vitali as the "champ": he hadn't necessarily proved that he was the best fighter in the division. The problem is that, beyond some weak fighers, DK messes everything up with his stranglehold over the top contenders. He parades around a bunch of so-so guys and calls them champions, yet he won't put any of them up against Vitali except weaker guys that have little chance of beating him, like Rachman.

Do you agree with Ring putting Vitali as heavyweight champ? They've taken some heat for that because he rought their #2 contender to get the title, not their #1. According to their rules they will make exceptions in cases like this sometimes but that doesn't stop the controversy. At first I was against them putting Vitali at the top, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. Too bad a fight with #1 Byrd isn't going to happen anytime soon. I guess I have to pick him as number one.... Does that mean he can beat anybody in the HW division, maybe not. I think Byrd would give him problems, regardless of their first fight, Byrd has improved since then. I think the HW division consists of Moe, Larry and Curly. No domenate force. If VK really wants to be the champ, he needs to be the Undisputed champ, then he can tell all the belt organizations to kiss his ass. Just like Lewis did. When your on top like Lewis, you call the shots. Just because somebody strips you of your belt doesn't count as a loss. If you are on top, the only way down is to be beat. There is nobody on the summit of the HW division right now, we just measure who is closest. BHop is on the top, Kostya is on top etc....

Do you agree with Ring putting Vitali as heavyweight champ? They've taken some heat for that because he rought their #2 contender to get the title, not their #1. According to their rules they will make exceptions in cases like this sometimes but that doesn't stop the controversy. At first I was against them putting Vitali at the top, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. Too bad a fight with #1 Byrd isn't going to happen anytime soon. I guess I have to pick him as number one.... Does that mean he can beat anybody in the HW division, maybe not. I think Byrd would give him problems, regardless of their first fight, Byrd has improved since then. I think the HW division consists of Moe, Larry and Curly. No domenate force. If VK really wants to be the champ, he needs to be the Undisputed champ, then he can tell all the belt organizations to kiss his ass. Just like Lewis did. When your on top like Lewis, you call the shots. Just because somebody strips you of your belt doesn't count as a loss. If you are on top, the only way down is to be beat. There is nobody on the summit of the HW division right now, we just measure who is closest. BHop is on the top, Kostya is on top etc....

IMHO, Belts are idiotic. Just look at the HW division. Until the top guys fight each other, we can't have a champion. Most boxing experts say that VK is the champ, has he beat Ruiz? and Byrd beat him. Until they fight, there is no champion. I listen to Ring magazine. These santioning bodies are just greedy mo-fos that can be bribed. Don King has had many of them eating from his hand. Do you agree with Ring putting Vitali as heavyweight champ? They've taken some heat for that because he rought their #2 contender to get the title, not their #1. According to their rules they will make exceptions in cases like this sometimes but that doesn't stop the controversy. At first I was against them putting Vitali at the top, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. Too bad a fight with #1 Byrd isn't going to happen anytime soon.

IMHO, Belts are idiotic. Just look at the HW division. Until the top guys fight each other, we can't have a champion. Most boxing experts say that VK is the champ, has he beat Ruiz? and Byrd beat him. Until they fight, there is no champion. I listen to Ring magazine. These santioning bodies are just greedy mo-fos that can be bribed. Don King has had many of them eating from his hand.

I believe Joe Calzaghe is still champion even though he has ducked some fighters, but his championship is abit tainted.

are you talking lewis torino? if so you need to get a life stop nuthugging VK and learn more about what goes on the game. Very naive if you think its as simple as that.

If A boxer dodges other boxers and gives up Championship belts, Should he still be considered a Champion? IMO - I find this to be very disrespectful to what spirit of the championship represents. here you go again..I wonder who you might be referring to :rolleyes: I think they should still be considered champ only if it suits Torino's agenda :D ;)