Jack Johnson is no hero

bloodshed, anybody viewing him as a race traitor probably hasn't read much about him. being too pro black, especially back then, is like being pro white nowadays. it would be viewed as something other than what it actually is. besides that, i like the concept of being equal as opposed to simply boosting one side over the other. a few books i recommend: ken burns' unforgivable blackness(the book of course as it has much much more info on jack than the video. jack johnson is a dandy - a decent autobiography if you can find it. my copy is from 1969. keep in mind, however, that like a lot of great fighters from the early days of boxing that some of the material might not be 100% accurate. these are just a couple of books that i have regarding jack specifically, but they provide a fairly wide scope of jack and his views. the autobiography that he wrote probably best describes and demonstrates the way he thought as opposed to second hand accounts.

Based on what I've heard about Unforgivable Blackness from Ken Burns and others, it appears that Jack Johnson will be portrayed as an arrogant yet ultimately noble man. I have some issues with this. There is no doubt that Johnson was oppressed because of his race, and was betrayed by his government and indicted on phony charges because the general public did not want a black heavyweight champion, especially one that was so arrogant. This, however, does not make him a good person. Jack Johnson was notorious for horrendously beating his girlfriends. I don't maen he lost his temper once and did something he later regretted...I mean he brutally beat these girls over and over and never learned his lesson. This is not something that should be celebrated. Interestingly enough, the only reason the feds could nail Johnon on the Mann act was because one of his old girlfriends that he beat around was so ticked off that she said whatever the government wanted to hear. He wasn't even an advocate for African-American rights. Johnson had no interest in advancing the interests of African-Americans...he was only interested in himself. He refused to fight any other black challengers after he won the title because he knew that a white audience would not pay to see to black men fight for the title. In his later years he was always openly critical of other black boxing superstars, most notably Joe Louis. He always predicted that Louis would lose his fights and always made a point of criticizing his skills. Was Johnson a great fighter? Yes. Was he railroaded by his own government? Absolutely. But was he a man worth honouring? No way, at least not as much as Burns appears to be doing. ** You appear to specialize in being totally wrong on most every point. 1. The Mann act charges were legit and Johnson admitted guilt. 2. Johnson may have slapped one of his wives are girlfriends on occasion, but he was actually known for being very generous and courteous with them. 3. Johnson was a great fighter, but he was also highly overrated. He turned down bigger money to fight Langford to fight for much less against Moran, so the money angle is dead wrong. He was afraid of losing his title. 4. Modern blacks usually do consider him a hero. Of course most of them know about as much as you do about him, about zip!

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others. yeah, dempsey was not a racist by a long shot.

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others.

That seems really passively denying racism in the society. Then you had to be outspoken and not quietly fighting against injustices back then. I can see why he was called a race traitor. His passiveness was useless if people were being hung for the color of their skin. If you could recommend a book that would be great. Dude and I have talked a lot about Jack Jackson. Sounds like an interesting era he was from. jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation.

actually now id do remember reading about one of his girls being in the hospital for some reason, but i believe i had also read that jack was there with her the whole time. details are fuzzy at best. i'll have to thumb through some of my books and see if i can find any info for those who want to know. one thing i thought i should also mention is that the newspapers back in those days were very racist themselves and had made a considerable effort to villianize johnson.

wow, i can't believe this thread passed by my radar. i noticed that a lot of people had seen the ken burns doc, but who here besides me has read the companion book? actually, the video is more like the companion to the book. never read about him beating the shit out of any of his women though. i do remember that he had raised a hand to one or two of his girls, but i'm sure if he had intended to literally beat the shit out of 'em they would been hospitalized at some point. jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation. if anyone has questions on jack, ask away. i have a section of my library dedicated to jack which includes biographies, auto-biographies, and a wealth of information on his life in general and even whole books written about particular fights.

What Bombardier was sayin is that Johnson didnt benifit anybody but himself. I heard when Joe Louis was comin up his trainers were telling him you have to be the perfect gentlemen outside the ring and the meanist sonofabitch inside. Louis trainers also had rules for Louis you couldnt drink or smoke, or be photographed with a white women, etc. And even through all these difficulties and barriers (None of which Johnson alleviated by respecting the title) Louis stil respected the heavyweight champonship of the world all most 10 years before Jackie Robinson. Johnson could have sacrificed things to help the future of his ppl but he chose not to. And b/c of this book and documentry we see him on HW TOP 10 lists and all that and to me its a bit funny, b/c nobody was talkin about him a couple yrs ago. Its almost the same case w/ Braddock with the exception that Braddock was truely a great human being, but after the movie ppl overrate him a bit. In any case Jack Johnson is no martyr for the black race and in my opinion he ranks in between 14-10 and no higher than 10 in the top heavies of all time

Okay, fair enough. I disagree though that Johnson was critical of Louis because he thought he was playing up to white people. If Johnson didn't care about civil rights for African Americans why would he care if Louis was doing this? Fact is Johnson liked the spotlight for himself and himself only. I know that a lot of people will like Johnson no matter what he might have done in his personal life. I wasn't trying to start trouble with this thread. You might be surprised to hear that I'm a big fan of his as well. It's just that people shouldn't say that he did or believed certain things when it's not true. Ive seen the documentary way after this thread was done,so I'll say this about Louis-Johnson,didnt Johnson want to train Louis? But he was turned down because louis's people didnt want him assosiated with that kind of man/image.At which point Johnson turned bitter,and predicted louis would lose his next match(which he did?)

i think its great jakc was the first black man to dominate a huge sport, jackie robinson was the next great black player to come into a major white "ruled" sport, i think he woulda had a lot lot tougher time then he did if jack johnson wasnt the champ in boxing

I love Jack Johnson, and love watching his fights. We can't judge him, everyone does bad things. I will always remember him as a true American hero.

of course jack johnson wasnt a hero. he was and arrogant rascist who did everything he could to make people hate him.

Everyone on this forum condemns Jack Dempsey (rightfully, by the way) for being racist, even though it was a "different era", as you put it, and pretty much every white guy was racist. Doesn't make it right. Plus I make pains to mention that Johnson brutally beat his women. He didn't just slap them now and then, as I'm sure a lot of husbands did at the time, as you say. You are way way wrong here. Read your damn history, for god's sakes. Read about W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington. These guys were advocating for black rights at the SAME time that Johnson was fighting. There were guys who were doing so even earlier. The late 19th century and early 20th century were full of black activists. This just makes Johnson an even bigger jerk for thinking only about himself when so many other people were looking up to him. And Joe Louis fought only white guys because the same racial problems existed in his time. Only after WW2 did the public start accepting other black challengers. web dubois and booker t washington were educated men doing extrodinary things at the time you cant judge jack johnson for not following them in their footsteps in leading the black rights movement. johnson wasn't educated, he wasnt in a position like athletes today are, nobody cared what he had to say, he was just a boxer in white america at that time.

Gotta give him that much, he fought an uphill battle and pretty much won.

Jack Johnson deserves all the credit in the world. He never claimed to be an activist for African American right or for anything for that matter. He was just his own man! He did whatever he wanted, dated whoever and went anywhere. This was in the early 1900, and that took major balls - the size of which I can't comprehend!

Jack Johnson lived in a very different time from the 50's and 60's, much less 2005. I'm white, but I can honestly say that if I was black during those times, I probably would not be the most upbeat and community-driven citizen. It's ridiculous how people living in our politically-correct and more equalized society can actually use our culture and values to analyze and compare someone from the early 20th century.

good points, its funny how everyone is jumping on his bandwagon, the guy fought a 100 years ago, how does anyone alive now know what he was really like, from what ive read he is a self serving ahole, now they want to honor him Hypocrite. Why is it alright for you to criticize Jack Johnson, but it isn't alright for someone to support him when NO ONE alive knows what he was really like. People, this is boxing. We admire boxers, not for their personal lives, but more for their ring accomplishments and legacy. Boxers aren't known to be very great role-models. WAKE UP CALL. Don't try to mask yuor racism with faux-credibility.

Yes Jack Johnson deseves to be celabrated. We cant even comprehend the stuff he had to overcome and still he made it to the top, only to have an entire section of the country try there hardest to bring him down when he made. Your biggest problem with him seems to be that he hit his women. Well I hate to break it to you, but back then in 1913 hitting your woman was not considered out of line. Thats the honest truth it was a different era. You also bring up that Johnson was not "an advocate for African-American rights". Again I hate to break it to you, but there were no such things at the time when Johnson was in his hey day. Even the thought of African-Americans having equal rights didn't come along till decades later. You try and critasize him for only fighting white guys, but what you fail to realize is that black men also wanted him to fight and beat up white men. They lived through him. Also check Joe Louis record its 95% white guys for this same reason. Johnson deserves every honor that comes his way. Im with you man, he deserves it.

I saw the documentary and the above quote by Boxerdog is better than anything those sociologists, historians, or boxing experts said in the documentary. That quote is dead on right -- Johnson was beating white dudes the fuk up in front of thousands and this was just thirty, forty years after slavery! Man, the pressure of being Johnson and the hate the public must have felt towards him is impossible to understand. Jackie Robinson hit some ground balls through the infield. Big deal. At a time when black dudes were expected to step and fetch it, Jack Johnson beat white dudes up. That's heavy stuff to deal with for all concerned. jack johnson's parents had been slaves when they were chlidren. he was a very intelligent man, and i think he took it on himself to punish the white man for slavery and racism. i know the guy wasn't perfect, but no one is, i love jack johnson because in a time when everyone who wasn't white was supposd to be mentally and physically inferior, a black man was the greatest athlete in the world. that's giving white racists a huge middle finger

when you judge a fighter should we not just judge him on his work in the ring? We are all flawed. The man was a hero in my opinion for his work inside the ring and his bravery for standing up and succeeding inspite of the racial injustices of the time. It teaches a lesson. If he can make it back during that time we all can make it despite any obstacles that are set against us.