Liston - What a shame

Sonny Liston is an all time 20 heavy-weight no doubt, maybe even a top 15, but i dont see him higher then that. he had one of the greatest jabs ever and incredible punching power, which is comparable with Big George. But he jus wasn't explosive enough. He didn't put enough pressure on his opponents, and make them fight his fight. To me, Mike Tyson, had that problem too. And that problem can be exposed, as Sonny Liston was in the first Clay fight, as Clay fought circles around Liston. If Ali ever fought a prime Tyson I think the same thing would have happened to Tyson. But quicker as Tyson would have got frustrated and given up, just as he did in the Lewis fight. But Ali could never do this to another brawler in Joe frazier. And the reason is that Joe Frazier always kept comin in. Always putting pressure on his oppoenent. Never allowing his opponent a moments rest. And ultimately, not allowing Ali to dance circles around him, as Clay did to Liston.

That is a myth. Even Angelo Dundee says some of the stuff they used to Liston's cuts accidently rubbed off on Ali, there was no foul play.

If Liston "threw" the first Ali fight, why would he resort to cheating? (illegal substance)

It's no myth he took the dive in 2nd fight because alis life was threatened and he didnt want to be in the crossfire. You would have to put him in the region 8-12.

Liston is a definately a HeavyWeight great, he had a brutal jab that would give you headaches for days. He outslugged heavyhitters like Cleveland Williams and anihilated Floyd Patterson twice. If him and Marciano fought he would have whooped him up too. I got Liston rated at #9 on my top 10 list. I do believe Liston took a dive in the second Ali fight cause Liston has a granite chin and KOing people in the first round just isnt Ali's style.

Everyone seems to want to talk about great heavyweights, always banging on about Ali, Fraizer, Forman, Holyfield (as if), Holmes.... Is Marciano underrated/overrated. I'll tell you now the most underated Heavey of all time is Sonny Liston, he sould be in the top 5 of anyones heavy list, nobody had a clue how old he was he was almost certainly fighting well into his fifties right at the top of the tree. If only he had not got mixed up in the mob (re Ali) then I truely believe that he would be regarded as the truely awsome fighter that he actually was. You want to talk about how hard Fraizer and Forman hit, Liston had more punch than either. Top 5? HELL NO He aint top 20

I have Liston in my top ten for sure. The "cowardly" performances against Ali were tragic. He was a below average intellect guy who had to take his dives to stay alive. He was so deep into trouble with the mafia and had no choice. If we talk about about which guy would beat who, he would stand a great chance against anyone.

Liston is so over rated. He beat a scared to death Patterson and his efforts against Ali were pathetic at best. He should not be in the top 20 of the best Heavy's ever.

Cowardly?? Liston won 3 of his 6 rounds with Ali and only stopped b/c of a torn rotator cuff, which is an injury he really had. The Ali revisionists say he quit b/c of the 'beating' he was taking but if you look at the film Liston was very much in the fight and even in the last round slipped the wide majority of Ali's punches. And the 2nd fight is a joke-a clear dive (for whatever reasons) if there ever has been one. Liston was not a front-runner he went the distance against a very tricky a determined Eddie Machen, winning a clear decision, and also came back from bad 1st round beatings to stop Cleveland Williams, who in his prime (when Liston fought him) was a remarkable boxer-puncher.

Liston is definetly top ten, probably closer to the middle. Why is it that Liston is totally dismissed because of his fights with Ali, being cowardly or lack of skills, but Tyson get's the benefit of the doubt. What's more cowardly than biting someone, trying to break opponents arms on at least two occasions and his lack of skills is overwhelming. It's hard to judge fighters without personal bias creeping in. Judged straight, Liston deserves to be close to the top. I hold the cowardly performances of both against them. They were frontrunners. True greats are the furthest things from from frontrunners.

Liston is definetly top ten, probably closer to the middle. Why is it that Liston is totally dismissed because of his fights with Ali, being cowardly or lack of skills, but Tyson get's the benefit of the doubt. What's more cowardly than biting someone, trying to break opponents arms on at least two occasions and his lack of skills is overwhelming. It's hard to judge fighters without personal bias creeping in. Judged straight, Liston deserves to be close to the top.

All I'm going of is what you said. What's there to understand ? The facts are...off of what he accomplished, he does not deserve to be in anyone's top 5. What he could have been & what he was...are two different things. Greats don't get rated on potential. You are absolutely free to lament what coulda been. Say what you want about his two fights with Ali, but they HAPPENED, & they were AWFUL. I couldn't agree more. I understand that it is fun to think what if but the truth of the matter is that unless there is historical evidence that the guy could perform at top level against top fighters (consistently) then there is no way he could be rated in anyone's top 10 (especially considering all of the other heavyweights that have managed to perform at this level over the past hundred plus years)

I agree, there was still alot of stuff going on back then, and Liston got his shot way to late. This coupled with the fact that he didn't really like to train kept him from being at his best at times. Many people that know of him do generally regard him as a Tyson-like brawler, because most of them have only seen his fights with Ali and Patterson, but in fact he was an excellent boxer puncher with a very hard jab and knockout power in either hand. He should be the one people are putting in their lists instead of talking about Lewis being an all time great. (just an opinion)

Liston cleaned out a very deep HW division while waiting for his title shot. It's not his fault he was in his mid-late 30s by the time Patterson gave him a title shot . . .

i like Sonny liston, i think he belongs in the top ofall time great hw's, but i also know he was a complex man with many personal demons, and i think that kept the world from seeing his full potential

Have you read his book? Night Train, if you haven't you should it's a great read I have Night Train (though it has a different title on this side of the ocean) though I have yet to read it. I heard it was a little odd and possibly creative with the facts, so to speak. Anyway, that's just what I heard (Tosches is the kind of guy that people like to pick apart if they don't like his work). I've read the Remnick book on Ali ("King of the World") which has a good deal of content about Liston. The author is a little biased towards Ali, though, and completely discounts the "dive" theories. I sort of take issue with that, but it's interesting to hear both sides, anyway.

Some people think that he took a dive because of intimidation from the Nation of Islam. This is not meant as an offence to this organization, but they certainly had some intimidators in those days and Ali was a champion they wanted to protect. Anyway, just another conspiracy theory... Some people also think that Liston stayed down on his own accord even though he could have got back up. Jack Dempsey believes this and told a great story about his own career to prove how a boxer can completely lose sight of reality while he's in the ring. I can dig it up if anyone's interested. Liston is one of those ghosts of history, a mysterious figure who led a tragic life. He was unquestionably incredibly gifted and maybe could have been an absolute legend if it weren't for his troubles. Fifty years from now, people may be saying the same thing about Tyson. Have you read his book? Night Train, if you haven't you should it's a great read

Before the Ali fight took place, where would you have rated him and where would you have rated Ali? Interesting question, Liston was top dog at the time but Ali although rated highly was not considered the no.2, he was about 4 or 5, we know different now, I would say that they were both exceptional within their generation, 1 and 2 no doubt.

It not contradictory in the slightest, you simply don't understand. I'm not refering to who he did or didn't beat. I'm refrence the Ali fights when Liston took a dive for the mob. Some people think that he took a dive because of intimidation from the Nation of Islam. This is not meant as an offence to this organization, but they certainly had some intimidators in those days and Ali was a champion they wanted to protect. Anyway, just another conspiracy theory... Some people also think that Liston stayed down on his own accord even though he could have got back up. Jack Dempsey believes this and told a great story about his own career to prove how a boxer can completely lose sight of reality while he's in the ring. I can dig it up if anyone's interested. Liston is one of those ghosts of history, a mysterious figure who led a tragic life. He was unquestionably incredibly gifted and maybe could have been an absolute legend if it weren't for his troubles. Fifty years from now, people may be saying the same thing about Tyson.

Wait... You don't think those Ali fights detract from his greatness ? They were COWARDLY exhibitions. Well I do from the perspective that he was tied up in the mob, asked to take a dive in a specific round so that a bunch of gangsters would cash in, I guess he shouldn't have got involved - cowardly from that perspective. But then what would you do if your life was being threatened? I guess its a tricky one. I think the mob actually did away with him in the end, the circumstances surrounding his death are a bit dodgy.