Fighters then and now....objective differences (not opinions)

[Scott9945]

I think that the skill level in boxing has declined because of the advances in physical conditioning/training. because that has become such a big part of boxing, more so than learning how to box. In the old days, a trainer did everything and the focus was always on how each aspect affected the fighter's boxing ability. Now, it seems that there are so many different 'experts' pulling a guy in different directions and telling him what to do, and most of them know nothing about boxing. And it is real easy to be in great shape, but to be in not so good fighting shape.
Also, there is a lack of depth in the teaching ranks. Not to say that there aren't some good teachers, and many more very dedicated teachers, but think of this. If I suggested to you that there is a lot to learn from studying the old bare-knuckle fights and the fights from the very early gloved era, I suspect that most of you would laugh at me. You would point out the 'crude' style and the 'amateurish' swings (I would be too polite to point out how many threads question how to throw 'long range' hooks; aka 'swings.') But that would be ignoring a lot- like how to place punches to maximize impact and save your hands, or how to clinch and wrestle to wear down your opponent.
People forget that eddie futch didn't invent a damn thing- and he said as much himself. So much knowledge died with the great trainers over the years. And why did it die? Because guys turn pro and fight sparingly; growth as a fighter is a process. You used to be able to fight on a regular basis, if you wanted to do so, and thus you stayed in the gym. You constantly learned, from your trainer, sparring partners, and opponents. It is really hard to become 'great' and anything you only do sometimes. the old time guys were fighters all the time- not for two nights per year, and the 6 weeks leading up to those nights.

One of the very best posts that I've read here in awhile. Especially the first part about conditioning vs skills.

[StarshipTrooper]

I think that the skill level in boxing has declined because of the advances in physical conditioning/training. because that has become such a big part of boxing, more so than learning how to box. In the old days, a trainer did everything and the focus was always on how each aspect affected the fighter's boxing ability. Now, it seems that there are so many different 'experts' pulling a guy in different directions and telling him what to do, and most of them know nothing about boxing. And it is real easy to be in great shape, but to be in not so good fighting shape.
Also, there is a lack of depth in the teaching ranks. Not to say that there aren't some good teachers, and many more very dedicated teachers, but think of this. If I suggested to you that there is a lot to learn from studying the old bare-knuckle fights and the fights from the very early gloved era, I suspect that most of you would laugh at me. You would point out the 'crude' style and the 'amateurish' swings (I would be too polite to point out how many threads question how to throw 'long range' hooks; aka 'swings.') But that would be ignoring a lot- like how to place punches to maximize impact and save your hands, or how to clinch and wrestle to wear down your opponent.
People forget that eddie futch didn't invent a damn thing- and he said as much himself. So much knowledge died with the great trainers over the years. And why did it die? Because guys turn pro and fight sparingly; growth as a fighter is a process. You used to be able to fight on a regular basis, if you wanted to do so, and thus you stayed in the gym. You constantly learned, from your trainer, sparring partners, and opponents. It is really hard to become 'great' and anything you only do sometimes. the old time guys were fighters all the time- not for two nights per year, and the 6 weeks leading up to those nights.

^^^^^ This post should be stickied :cool9:

Poet

[U_TALKING_2_ME?]

Well to me you can not compare a "Game" like football or baseball to boxing, because boxing is not a game it is combat where skill and experience are paramount for success.
For example i remember reading once that there where more registered professional boxers just in the greater NY area then there are in the whole US of A now.
So to make a long story short i will get to the point, the larger the talent pool is and the more often they practice their craft the better the fighters will be, fighting is skill based, this is not a sprint.
Their will always be exceptions to any rule but to say that in general the fighter are better today than they use to be just because they are better athletes is absurd to me.

[billeau2]

Well to me you can not compare a "Game" like football or baseball to boxing, because boxing is not a game it is combat where skill and experience are paramount for success.
For example i remember reading once that there where more registered professional boxers just in the greater NY area then there are in the whole US of A now.
So to make a long story short i will get to the point, the larger the talent pool is and the more often they practice their craft the better the fighters will be, fighting is skill based, this is not a sprint.
Their will always be exceptions to any rule but to say that in general the fighter are better today than they use to be just because they are better athletes is absurd to me.

That is well said. I think that is one of the mistakes in logic people make, assuming the correlation with athletic training and fighting. To me there is a point where conditioning per se is important, but as conditionoing becomes more pronounced it becomes less important than the actual skill sets used in combat. Actually modern training even bears this out. The ability of people to use the core muscles, to use high intensity training, allows them to perform at an elite fitness level.

Another mistake people make is to assume modernity always translates as progress. It is more a mixed bag than people imagine. For example, one would be hard pressed to find a better apartment than in a prewar building circa 1920's. The plumbing is built into the wall and can flush a whale down the tiolet! the moldings, security of the load bearing walls, plaster and paint work, the craftsmanship....there is nothing comprable that can be built today...and why is this? its a cost issue. Any knowledgable construction person knows that a building from this time will still outlast most modern buildings. And appliances? like these buildings were built to last a lifetime. Try buying an appliance today and comparing its life to an older appliance.

My point is that so called progress is sometimes not progressive at all but a function of other factors....With cars? cars are better today, but now with everything....boxers are not better imo, football players are....we have to judge everything on its own individual merits and not make blanket assumptions.

[Anthony342]

True, but people don't build things to last anymore also because they could make more money getting people to keep buying new products. Why build something that could last a lifetime when you could make more profits getting them to buy another newer one in say, 10 years?

And to use your martial arts analogy, not much progress was made in that area for hundreds of years until the NHB/Vale Tudo fights that Gracies took part in early in the 20th century took place but the major progress was made when UFC 1 happened. Then, some major progress was made because people realized you need to know more than one technique to win a real fight and people quickly learned that even if you were/are a top champion boxer or black belt/red sash in a martial art, top tier wrestler, that you needed to learn other techniques to win fights. First, people realized that when the strikers were getting dominated by the grapplers, so the strikers had to learn submissions and grappling and then when strikers caught up, you started seeing grapplers cross training in boxing and kickboxing to keep up with strikers until we ended up with the well rounded sport there is today.

And, like I've often heard about boxing, a lot of the old trainers that are no longer with us, have not had people to pass their teachings onto as much these days, with fighters not fighting as often and less interest in the sport on TV and with fans, so that could also be why, while boxers are more athletic, that the skill level isn't always better or that much better.

[DeepSleep]

Weighing in the day before means were not even comparing apples to apples in terms of weight. When we have a welterweight showing up at fight night at 170 he shouldn't be compared to a guy who weighed 147 on fight night...