The Lineal (and true) World Heavyweight Title

[Eff Pandas]

... from what I've learned, both Cyber Boxing Zone and TBRB say that "the lineal" will be the winner of Wilder vs AJ...

When did they strip Fury of the lineal title?

Is there a agreed upon time table of when inactivity = you lose the lineal title. Cuz some of those old timey guys had gaps in their fights as well.

[Marchegiano]

Well first of all you are quite right about the Greek revival. Hitherto, before Imanuel Kant and the birth of Modern philosophy circa 1740's give or take lol!!!, it was the Egyptians that were considered the keepers of the logical flame of reason. This came from the Romans, who were often copied in our technology and systems (they copied the greeks...) who felt that the Egyptians were highly developed culturally. Hence Cleopatra, and lets not forget that the Greeks also held these attitudes. Plato himself wrote in the timateus and Crito that there was an island of Atlantis that the Egyptian Priests claimed to him, they had learned from regarding their own culture.

Anyhow after the Romantic era, where the Greeks were considered passionate, emotionally immature, noble and small minded, Greek philosophy took root and the Greeks became the locus of order, including moral and aesthetic (Hellinistic ideas, etc), which is why we study Greek ideas today, when in fact the Romans were really the principle architects of most of our institutions.

REgarding the combat arts, there is a distinct difference between the Greek lines and European lines. Greek combat, along with Persian combatives were based primarily in feets of strength and agility, and conditioning. Arts such as Pankraton, were all inclusive, similar to MMA today. Hence we never really have a record of the combat masters and fight masters that tells us technical preferences. It does however appear that the military application of wrestling and boxing in Greek technology was distinct. Sword and shield was based on military formation, to such an extent that the Athenians were even able to stave off the Spartans for a while! But even against each other and the battle of Marathon, the emphasis seems to have been on large scale tactics and weaponry.

This is different from China and Japan where the martial arts were military arts...Yes even the Tai Chi one sees today was a battlefield art at one time. So, for example, we have MOng dynasty Generals in China commenting on how poor the staff techniques are at the Shaolin Monastery.

English rudimentary theory was based on sword masters from the German school, the Spanish school and eventually the Italian school of sword work. German sword was based on the different angles of entry, more practical than fencing today...Spanish/Portugese sword work, which was no doubt influenced by overseas head to heads with various small south East Asian tribes, like the MOro Moro, used a natural walking motion with the blade, useful for dueling! along with in the field. Spanish work was also great with shorter weapons, and many Spanish teachers preferred a short and a long weapon to a long sword and buckler.

English sword play came about during a post renaissance revival of the Italian Rapier, the Buckler, and Bastard Sword, and weapons that were used when the rapier was deemed "impractical" due to its length and fraility. Some say that the Italian duelists were being killed because of these problems, run through by those who used a shorter more durable weapon that was less pretty.

In response to this concern young men late renaissance carried shorter rapiers or foils so the weapon could be drawn quickly. Finally, Saber fencing from the Eastern Germanic countries made its way into England as well, but English sword theories, as well as traditional German (Lichner) ideas about sword held that running a man through was a prefarable aim to end the encounter than, trying to slash away. This was not a concern for the more well travelled Spanish schools, who employed both methods.

So the thust held sway! Now...keep in mind that when we look at a Scottish Dirk, and some of the weapons employed in the British Isles, we see the influence on the Roman Gladiator Sword...Some would also see this on the Bastard Sword, though as a Japanese based bladed weapons guy myself, it is obvious that the long handle of the bastard sword makes it superior as a killing blade, to the gladiator sword which worked well for Roman purposes (it was used in the troops as well) but as a single weapon? Not so much.

So What you wound up with was similar to what you see in fencing today. This is as outlined above, somewhat distinct from Greek ideas about combat which were a different emphasis. Though obviously the logical order and teaching of the weapon, the illustrations involved, to manuscript these works, was very much influenced by Hellinistic Greek ideas of the human form.

The main way to understand this difference is that in fencing, as employed and developed by the schools in Europe mentioned above, that came down to Fig, did use the Buckler, but did not emphasize it. The Shield, essentially a gigantic buckler, is a whole other set of theories and technical applications. In boxing the original form and process assumed a man had two weapons at hand, both to be employed in a forward thrust of weight, to be defended by putting weight on the back leg and manuveuring into a proper attack sequence, much as a fencer does.

This is all great stuff!

I don't have much to say about it because it's very much outside of what I know, but it's super interesting and has given plenty to look into.

The only thing is the bit I have in bold I think might be an evolution of Greek boxing.

Absolutely the Greeks were centered around feats but from Philostratus there is this quote about how the Spartans invented boxing as a training for war and Philostratus covers some level of ancient boxing technique in his Gymastica ( i believe is the name, some such similar if I'm off) which I think may have come from Diagoras in some manner.

I don't mean to dispute what you've said. Anyone who knows even a little bit about guys like Theagenes and Euthymos or Melankomas or Glaukos etc knows it's mostly about feats and certainly by the time boxing went from a Spartan military training to Olympia it was far more sport than military training, but boxing was invented for the battlefield as well.

I believe Philostratus even says that the Spartans did not like the sport version of boxing because Spartans did not quit and the other Greeks took their refusal to yield as bad sportsmanship. So you don't see any Spartan champs because before it made it to Olympia they quit the sport end of boxing.

As far as the martial aspects I'm not very clear on it outside of the Philostratus quote about how it was conceived. I couldn't say for how long the Spartan army boxed, but I think the fact that the flow of western power coincides with the premier boxing state is an interesting anecdote. Greece to Rome, Rome to BE, BE to US...greatest boxing states or most powerful western countries? Same thing. Could just be coincidence though.

This is why I've always associated sword play in boxing as a Greek thing rather than an English thing, but, clearly fencing is not shield and sword and you can see plenty of fencing in boxing. To be honest when I see say Marciano I can almost see the shield and sword in his hands. Some of the postures he takes look exactly like the art that depicts epic heroes slaying monsters. When I see some good fence work I usually just associate that with Daniel The Jew Mendoza*, which is fair, but what is clear is Mendoza borrowed his stuff from fencing. Riposte = counterpunch. That is if Mendoza really is the guy who brought the counter punch to the game.

The only other point of interest is Demokrates, 25 AD Olympian, is reported by Christopher James Shelton to have been more famous than the Roman empire itself. Art depicting him can be found throughout the silk road.

There's not point really I just always thought it was pretty amazing that boxing had such a massive influence even in places we don't think of as being influenced by the Greeks or Romans you'll find some evidence of boxing's influence.

You're a super knowledgeable guy which has be believing you already knew this stuff, but for any third party reader it's good info so i felt like I had to write it up.

Thanks for the info bud! I really appreciate it.



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* Dear reader, I am not a racist nor I am not being paranoid by addressing this early. I've been banned from forums for typing out Daniel The Jew Mendoza a few times now, ESB is one of them. I understand it is easy to read The Jew and assume I'm carrying on some sort of racism. Daniel The Jew Mendoza was very proud of the fact that he was jewish. He used it to his advantage and he did not want the world to forget. I write out Daniel The Jew Mendoza in full not out of disrespect to The Jew but rather the utmost respect.

I believe Jack Johnson is quoted " They called me black, they never let me forget it. I am black, and I will never let them forget it." Danny was very similar to JJ. Fans mustn't know him simply as Daniel Mendoza. He is not a jew, he is not simply jewish. He is The Jew

Likewise while going on about ancient Greeks I have been accused of Greek Nationalism or racism in favor of Greeks because I am Greek. I am not Greek. I am Puerto Rican. Just a fan who likes history. If praising other peoples' cultures for their victories and feats makes me a nationalist then I reckon so, but I think that puts me firmly in the globalist column myself.

[billeau2]

This is all great stuff!

I don't have much to say about it because it's very much outside of what I know, but it's super interesting and has given plenty to look into.

The only thing is the bit I have in bold I think might be an evolution of Greek boxing.

Absolutely the Greeks were centered around feats but from Philostratus there is this quote about how the Spartans invented boxing as a training for war and Philostratus covers some level of ancient boxing technique in his Gymastica ( i believe is the name, some such similar if I'm off) which I think may have come from Diagoras in some manner.

I don't mean to dispute what you've said. Anyone who knows even a little bit about guys like Theagenes and Euthymos or Melankomas or Glaukos etc knows it's mostly about feats and certainly by the time boxing went from a Spartan military training to Olympia it was far more sport than military training, but boxing was invented for the battlefield as well.

I believe Philostratus even says that the Spartans did not like the sport version of boxing because Spartans did not quit and the other Greeks took their refusal to yield as bad sportsmanship. So you don't see any Spartan champs because before it made it to Olympia they quit the sport end of boxing.

As far as the martial aspects I'm not very clear on it outside of the Philostratus quote about how it was conceived. I couldn't say for how long the Spartan army boxed, but I think the fact that the flow of western power coincides with the premier boxing state is an interesting anecdote. Greece to Rome, Rome to BE, BE to US...greatest boxing states or most powerful western countries? Same thing. Could just be coincidence though.

This is why I've always associated sword play in boxing as a Greek thing rather than an English thing, but, clearly fencing is not shield and sword and you can see plenty of fencing in boxing. To be honest when I see say Marciano I can almost see the shield and sword in his hands. Some of the postures he takes look exactly like the art that depicts epic heroes slaying monsters. When I see some good fence work I usually just associate that with Daniel The Jew Mendoza*, which is fair, but what is clear is Mendoza borrowed his stuff from fencing. Riposte = counterpunch. That is if Mendoza really is the guy who brought the counter punch to the game.

The only other point of interest is Demokrates, 25 AD Olympian, is reported by Christopher James Shelton to have been more famous than the Roman empire itself. Art depicting him can be found throughout the silk road.

There's not point really I just always thought it was pretty amazing that boxing had such a massive influence even in places we don't think of as being influenced by the Greeks or Romans you'll find some evidence of boxing's influence.

You're a super knowledgeable guy which has be believing you already knew this stuff, but for any third party reader it's good info so i felt like I had to write it up.

Thanks for the info bud! I really appreciate it.



----------
* Dear reader, I am not a racist nor I am not being paranoid by addressing this early. I've been banned from forums for typing out Daniel The Jew Mendoza a few times now, ESB is one of them. I understand it is easy to read The Jew and assume I'm carrying on some sort of racism. Daniel The Jew Mendoza was very proud of the fact that he was jewish. He used it to his advantage and he did not want the world to forget. I write out Daniel The Jew Mendoza in full not out of disrespect to The Jew but rather the utmost respect.

I believe Jack Johnson is quoted " They called me black, they never let me forget it. I am black, and I will never let them forget it." Danny was very similar to JJ. Fans mustn't know him simply as Daniel Mendoza. He is not a jew, he is not simply jewish. He is The Jew

Likewise while going on about ancient Greeks I have been accused of Greek Nationalism or racism in favor of Greeks because I am Greek. I am not Greek. I am Puerto Rican. Just a fan who likes history. If praising other peoples' cultures for their victories and feats makes me a nationalist then I reckon so, but I think that puts me firmly in the globalist column myself.

There is plenty of information I am not aware of. It makes sense that a culture which held a pride in individual achievement and in scientific understanding would develop some capacity for boxing.

The Spartan connection you mention makes sense. It always comes down to being able trace it.., Hoplology the study of combat and weapons can show us cultures which must have had the most incredible martial arts. The Aztecs could take 3 or more prisoners at a time, and there have been reconstructions of Greek Pankraton by martial artists. Sometimes we get lucky...History has found treatise on the sword in the German school primarily. So we know about these schools. There should be some such works about the Spartans and they would tell us about the boxing.

When you say boxing was invented for the battle field this is true. Whats interesting about it is that while some cultures developed different forms from the combat systems utilized, in some cases like in Europe, the boxing that Figg worked with was essentially from the sword play.

[Anthony342]

Well The Ring used to be the authority. It just has to be agreed upon again who is to be the authority on deciding who is the right and true lineal title holder again, be it TBRB or someone else. As long as it's made of of respected, unbiased people who rank the contenders and award the titles fairly, that's all anyone wants. Then have a clear criteria for winning and defending the championship, losing the championship and filling any vacancies, like Ring used to be able to do.

[OctoberRed]

Well The Ring used to be the authority. It just has to be agreed upon again who is to be the authority on deciding who is the right and true lineal title holder again, be it TBRB or someone else. As long as it's made of of respected, unbiased people who rank the contenders and award the titles fairly, that's all anyone wants. Then have a clear criteria for winning and defending the championship, losing the championship and filling any vacancies, like Ring used to be able to do.

As long as the new authority is not Anorak

[escudo]

It's almost 300 years of boxing history. Until some alphabet orgs popped up ...

I'm actually researching the Lineal Heavyweight championship for a book. Since Figg kicked off the british boxing scene around 1720 to 1795 (where I'm currently at in writing and research) The lineage has been broken nearly half a dozen times so far. One died undefeated. 2 English champions were beaten by total unknowns in what amount to little more than bar fights only to never see those guys fight again. And 3 bribery/taking a dive. Lineal is BS. Has been since Jack Slack retired around 1750. The orgs are no better. It's who wins, who loses and who gives a ****.

[Ben Bolt]

You have some arguments in the 19th century, British vs American title holders, but virtually all books that have already been written on the subject agree on the bareknuckle champions list.

[billeau2]

You have some arguments in the 19th century, British vs American title holders, but virtually all books that have already been written on the subject agree on the bareknuckle champions list.

Yes it is well documented. Thank the boxing Gods allmighty! This country could learn a thing or two from Japan about documenting lineages. It becomes very important. Any lineage that has no breaks especially. And if people want to know why? I can recreate what an Aztec martial art probably looked like, there are even accounts of demonstrations for the Spaniards. I can probably give a great facsimile of what a 16th century recipe tasted like, although the exact flavors would be off quite a bit...as herbs were different in particular ways and its hard to find stuff like Roman squid ink and fish guts sauce.

BUT if I want to study a battle field art with the same exact techniques, and an unbroken line of masters at the healm, I can do it!

[OctoberRed]

You have some arguments in the 19th century, British vs American title holders, but virtually all books that have already been written on the subject agree on the bareknuckle champions list.

What would you say is the best book on the subject?

[Ben Bolt]

What would you say is the best book on the subject?

I can’t recall any special title, but what got me interested from the start was a giant book published by The Ring in the late 1980s, which contained several drawings from the old days.

The public libraries had a good collection of books, but often they weren’t on the shelves but stored in the basements, so you had to order them and wait a few days to receive them.

Some time ago, a friend sent me this link to Boxiana, printed in 1824, with several characters I hadn’t heard of before. Now and then, I pick a fighter to know some more about him, and I enjoy the round-by-round coverages.

https://archive.org/details/boxianao...ngoog/page/n16