The "Phantom Punch."

[BigBadBenn]

Many fights are or have been fixed. This wasn't one of them.

It certainly was man, it was so obvious and there are so many clues and unanswered questions pointing to a fix. Ali himself practically gave it away, he didnt even seem to bother to try and hide it. The phantom punch was a wrench in the works that genuinely stunned Liston, he apparently wasnt supposed to go down when he did

[HOUDINI563]

Again...those at ringside who actually saw the punch land including experts Damato, Patterson and Torres as well as the SI writer saw a KO blow.

[HOUDINI563]

AND if this were not enough the bout was investigated and no evidence of a fix was found.

[billeau2]

It was a nice punch. Not unlike one that had landed a minute before. But Liston had walked through bigger punches. Ali never replicated that either. Not even when he grew into his frame and was forced to sit down on his punches.

In Boxing, but especially MMA we see guys get touched and fold. It happens. But Liston's reaction looks forced.

I am not getting into the "fix" debate. Just the punch. That punch was used in the pre classical systems, it is a lead with no pronation of the hand (the wrist does not twist much, or at all), it catches the person on the chin tip, and a connection has to happen through any glove.

Ali somehow managed to get that connection so his weight carried into his hand, with no loss of power, so that when Liston was coming in he caught the punch on the chin tip. It is speed but its also placement and timing.

[johnbook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFA3DFFavwk

As I noted above, the punch and Liston's head reaction are easily seen.
The KD was clearly genuine.
Then Walcott's inept refereeing saw Ali left to stand over Liston who was too frightened to get up with Ali right there and ready to punch him.

I hope Walcott never reffed again.

No phantom, no "fix".

Case closed.

[billeau2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFA3DFFavwk

As I noted above, the punch and Liston's head reaction are easily seen.
The KD was clearly genuine.
Then Walcott's inept refereeing saw Ali left to stand over Liston who was too frightened to get up with Ali right there and ready to punch him.

I hope Walcott never reffed again.

No phantom, no "fix".

Case closed.

You will find certain arguments and thread topics reappear frequently here and this is one of them. I always await the day when a new thread on one of these topics opens with the caption "new data, new sources..." For example, recently a well known sports writer wrote a book about Liston. I would love to hear what was said about what Sonny said about the situation.

[HOUDINI563]

It’s hard to determine truth many times by reading a book. All writers want to make $ and the way to make $ is finding some new angle no matter how little evidence there is to write about.

The hundreds of books written about the Kennedy assassination is the No 1 example of this. A multi billion $ business where everyone wanted a piece of the pie.

[Joe Beamish]

It wasn't enough of a punch that would have knocked him out. Also, look at his reaction while lying on his back, he shields his eyes from the bright lights. A knocked out fighter isn't conscious enough to worry about shielding his eyes from lights. Ali got two gifts versus Liston, the first one can be argued ad nauseum, the rematch--that one has fix written all over it.

I agree. The KO was very funky. Liston must’ve wanted to quit very badly, because that’s what I see. A lot of quit.

I think he caught a real jolt, but not one so debilitating as to completely blank him out like that.

[Anthony342]

I agree. The KO was very funky. Liston must’ve wanted to quit very badly, because that’s what I see. A lot of quit.

I think he caught a real jolt, but not one so debilitating as to completely blank him out like that.

Exactly. It's just like when Jersey Joe Walcott went down in the rematch against Rocky Marciano or Alexis Arguello stayed down against Aaron Pryor, which was also a rematch. These all seemed like cases of guys getting caught with good shots and just not wanting to continue.

[too_much]

I thought it was legit, Sonny was a beaten fighter after the first one.