Who is the absolute greatest between Ray Robinson and Roy Jones on there best night?

[Ray Corso]

"Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era"........................rubbish!

Robinson 5'11" 160
Jones 5'11" 160

Jones stopped 5 times in 65 bouts.
Robinson stopped once in 200 bouts against the Light heavy weight World Champion. Stopped by heat exhaustion ahead on all three cards!

It's easier to tell which fighter can do well in all era's if you know what the hell your watching! If you can't tell you don't know!
Go read a record and compare common opponents if thats all you go by!

Ray

[The plunger man]

Both Ray Robinson and Ray Leonard were better fighters than jones...higher competition by far and were never knocked out cold in there career...jones was 4 times

[robertzimmerman]

Because it would indicate that Jones would not have to commit in his attempts, that he could get off his shots and get out of there against a guy who nobody could come close to doing such a thing. Robinson could knock you out...not just hit you going backwards.

It is more believable if people want to believe that Jones could somehow elude Ray Robinson... I don't believe that either, but I could see an argument, something like this:

"jones could as they often do in chess and in Japanese combat, go for a draw... In Chess not attacking, in Sword combat Iechue, or death by mutual cut...so when an inferior opponent knew they were over matched this was an ideal strategy...In similar fashion Jones could avoid Robinson, for 12 rounds, maybe 15..."

Again I don't believe it, but it is not entirely specious...On the other hand saying that Jones could catch Robinson now and then and avoid a counter...no way!

I'm confused here.

I've absolutely no issue whatsoever with anyone who thinks that Ray was a better P4P fighter than Roy. At his absolute best, he was classed as the perfect fighter. A more complete fighter than Roy. But his peak was at WW.

Although he was still a great fighter at MW, we've seen his fights at the weight.

At MW, Roy was a beast, weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night.

Why on earth couldn't Roy have beaten him at MW?

Why is it a fantasy to think that Roy could have won?

Again, we've seen Ray's fights with Basillio and Jake etc. As great as he was, those guys found him and beat him.

In a H2H fight at MW, I'd have to favour Roy. Ray wasn't a mythical figure at MW who couldn't be hit.

[robertzimmerman]

"Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era"........................rubbish!

Robinson 5'11" 160
Jones 5'11" 160

Jones stopped 5 times in 65 bouts.
Robinson stopped once in 200 bouts against the Light heavy weight World Champion. Stopped by heat exhaustion ahead on all three cards!

It's easier to tell which fighter can do well in all era's if you know what the hell your watching! If you can't tell you don't know!
Go read a record and compare common opponents if thats all you go by!

Ray

I think that anyone saying that Ray couldn't have competed against Roy, is ignorant. But I'd have to have favoured Roy in a H2H fight at MW. But that doesn't mean that Ray wasn't the better overall fighter on a P4P basis.

[Ray Corso]

"But his peak was at WW."........................not true!

If you look at his entire career his excellence is also during his Middleweight time. By 1947 Robinson was fighting above the Welter limit often and by 1948 Ray went back to 147 ONCE!HIs career began in 1940 so his prime was 8 years out of 25? WRONG!
He fought until 1965 (15 times) so to think his prime ended in 1948 and was less a fighter for the next 17 years is ignorance!
Winning and losing to folks Fullmer & Basilio in the late 50's is something current day fighters never accomplish. The closest fighter to accomplish wins towards the end of their career over champions and top contenders would be Duran.

Ray

[robertzimmerman]

"But his peak was at WW."........................not true!

If you look at his entire career his excellence is also during his Middleweight time. By 1947 Robinson was fighting above the Welter limit often and by 1948 Ray went back to 147 ONCE!HIs career began in 1940 so his prime was 8 years out of 25? WRONG!
He fought until 1965 (15 times) so to think his prime ended in 1948 and was less a fighter for the next 17 years is ignorance!
Winning and losing to folks Fullmer & Basilio in the late 50's is something current day fighters never accomplish. The closest fighter to accomplish wins towards the end of their career over champions and top contenders would be Duran.

Ray

Relax.

I'm a huge fan myself.

Most people acknowledge that Ray was at his absolute peak at WW. That of course does not mean he wasn't still great at MW. And we know that, because we have enough footage at MW to see that. But in those first 8 years, he'd fought many times. Fighting the likes of Jake, Fulmer and Basillio gave us great, entertaining fights. Yes, it was a huge achievement. But fighting Roy at MW would have been a huge task. Now if Roy had fought as many times as Ray, there's no way of telling what shape he'd have been in even in his 20's. Because we know that Roy's game was based around his unique athletiscism. And if he'd have fought every 3-4 weeks instead 3-4 times per year, he could have faded very quickly. There's no way of knowing. All we can do is look at the best versions of each guy from the footage that's available. And if we do that, we can see that Roy would have been a real handful for him. Because he was a huge MW with special gifts.

[juggernaut666]

I think ppl are mixing up a actual fight between the two .

Looking at greatest would go to SRR but an actual fight ?

RJJ is to much all around !



The best poster on these subjects billeau2 could go into details even if he disagrees !

[Ray Corso]

It's funny how the word "athleticism" is used to pad Jones's boxing
success because of a lack of "natural boxing skills"!

Sugar Ray is the greatest athlete to box ever! An all around athlete and dancer and a true pure boxer with power in both hands and is willing to fight when he believes it's his best outcome.
To compare a fellow like Jones to the greatest fighter who ever lived is ridiculous.
Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, LaMotta, Greb, Robinson and others all beat Jones!
Jones is known as a light heavy not a middleweight, he fought 19 middleweight bouts out of 76 fights!!!
35 bouts as a Light heavyweight! Some cruiser a few at heavy!

Ray does everything better than Jones and his record speaks for itself. Fighting champs and contenders far in to his senior years and winning and losing a few but never being stopped.

Ray

[robertzimmerman]

It's funny how the word "athleticism" is used to pad Jones's boxing
success because of a lack of "natural boxing skills"!

Sugar Ray is the greatest athlete to box ever! An all around athlete and dancer and a true pure boxer with power in both hands and is willing to fight when he believes it's his best outcome.
To compare a fellow like Jones to the greatest fighter who ever lived is ridiculous.
Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, LaMotta, Greb, Robinson and others all beat Jones!
Jones is known as a light heavy not a middleweight, he fought 19 middleweight bouts out of 76 fights!!!
35 bouts as a Light heavyweight! Some cruiser a few at heavy!

Ray does everything better than Jones and his record speaks for itself. Fighting champs and contenders far in to his senior years and winning and losing a few but never being stopped.

Ray

Ray, I always enjoy reading your posts. It's always a pleasure as you've got great knowledge. But in my honest opinion, you're being very biased here, as you obviously have a great admiration of Ray. You're being very defensive.

Again, if you put both Ray and Roy under the microscope, then Ray comes out on top. Again, I have no issue with anyone who thinks that Ray was the better fighter, with a better resume. But the TS was asking who looked greater in their primes. Well, it's a tough question, because even though Roy wasn't as skilled as Ray in a conventional sense, he looked just about unbeatable in his peak at SMW.

Roy only stayed at MW for a short period, because by the time he'd broke free from his father, he was desperate for the big fights, and had the opportunity to fight Toney.

Regarding H2H fights with the guys you've mentioned, I'd have to have favoured Roy over them. Again, he was huge at the weight, and his incredible speed coupled with his power and his skills, would have caused those guys huge problems. I really can't see how Jake would have beaten Roy.

[billeau2]

I think ppl are mixing up a actual fight between the two .

Looking at greatest would go to SRR but an actual fight ?

RJJ is to much all around !



The best poster on these subjects billeau2 could go into details even if he disagrees !

I have been really busy and wish I could be more regular. There are in a match up like this, a tremendous amount of variables to consider. Length of boute, the considerations like how many times a fighter fought, the best weight, etc.

There are some things that I would think might loom large here:

It can not be said often enough that a 15 rounder with all the trimmings is not the same as a 12 rounder. Robinson could become the stalker, because I am guessing he would not try to outbox Roy. We will never know how susceptable Roy was to power at his best because he didn't get touched up.

So Jugs I can't agree or disagree about this, lol. There is really no precident I can think of for this fight... I can't think if an opponent Robinson fought that is similar to Jones