Compound thread: My points about Dempsey, Truth Claims and Evidence in boxing history

[Anthony342]

I tried a thread like this once before. AS we look at historical situations, the proof we get for conclusions becomes very important. When we are trying to establish the truth regarding a fighter, a circumstance the quality of the evidence is really important and the quality has to do with the source material.

With that said lets look at types of anecdotal proof:

We had trainers and unfortunately many of these trainers have passed. What makes a lot of the testimony of a man like Duva, Cus, etc is that they have lived and experienced the fighters they talk about. When we get information that is not second hand, but from a trainer who has worked with the fighter spoken of, we are getting valuable information because of that connection.

Its different when we get that testimony second hand: It becomes increasingly less valuable as a matter of fact.

What about people in the fight game, people like writers for example? Traditionally sports writers seemed to know the fight game well in the past. How credible are their opinions regarding fighters? I would say one thing to be aware of is in my generation (mid 1960's born) many of the writers in the papers, grew up hard scrabble and knew a thng or two about fist fights and the fight game. Guys like Larry Merchant for example. These men seemed to know the fighters well and took the time to write thoughtful columns about boxing and wrassling! back then the wrasslers, even doing the works (throwing the fights) were respected as sportsmen, probably because of the work required to fall properly among other things.

My first question would be if the internet with its new ways has taken basic skills, writing ability, content knowledge and maintained them. Does a writer today have the background and knowledge to know boxing like it used to be known?

They do if they're open minded, good listeners and do their research. And the wrestling business is even more respected today, as the dangers of steroids, pain pill abuse and concussions are more known now and of the stunts these men and women take part in. It unfortunately overshadows the legit matches, as they're hardly seen or known these days. Other than amateur wrestling, is there even real wrestling in the pros? And if so, why is it not televised? I actually enjoyed when Pax, now ION TV, used to show a league called Real Pro Wrestling with Olympic gold medalist Rulon Gardner as one of the commentators. It seems most, if they're unable to get into the business and do scripted matches, seem to become high school, college and Olympic coaches or start training at their local boxing gym, plus learn submission wrestling, so they can compete in MMA.

[billeau2]

Travesty

I don't care what you think anymore. Really. I put my information down so it can be referred back to. You are simply unable to accept differences of opinion. I cared about what you thought we discussed it there are things that you can't get past. So be it, learn to move on.

I started the thread not to gunk up the other thread, and again to put my information down so no words can be put in my mouth.

You want to make a further issue of this by all means do so... Take it do the dome, whatever. You are an idiot who just does not know when to accept a difference of opinion and I am sick of arguing.

My views are here anyone can refer to them...its really as simple as that.

Nothing you said indicates that there is a tape that is capable of causing disfigurement... The Mccoy quoat says "like Iron" which is descriptive in any number of ways, not an observation and does nothing to confirm such a tape.Your focused on me too much focus on what you are trying to tell people tape can cause for an opponent.

[billeau2]

They do if they're open minded, good listeners and do their research. And the wrestling business is even more respected today, as the dangers of steroids, pain pill abuse and concussions are more known now and of the stunts these men and women take part in. It unfortunately overshadows the legit matches, as they're hardly seen or known these days. Other than amateur wrestling, is there even real wrestling in the pros? And if so, why is it not televised? I actually enjoyed when Pax, now ION TV, used to show a league called Real Pro Wrestling with Olympic gold medalist Rulon Gardner as one of the commentators. It seems most, if they're unable to get into the business and do scripted matches, seem to become high school, college and Olympic coaches or start training at their local boxing gym, plus learn submission wrestling, so they can compete in MMA.

I know wrestling never really caught on lol. Yet it is part of many of the combat trainings.

The truth is that a lot of the press corps for the wrassling league were top notch as well.

[billeau2]

Good thread.

Not a Dempsey expert, but what little I can add is that Dempsey entered the ring with his hands wrapped; pic below.



No issues raised from Willard's camp or Willard himself when they shook hands.

The bike tape was well known by trainers of the time, usually black.

Hey Joe! what does it take to get you posting here more on the regular!?

Yeah there were things of various sorts that were used on the hands of fighters...Intially Dempsey was in fact accused of having cement, and other such things in his gloves. The solid objects, over the years went by the wayside, and one idea that stuck was that he had a substance that gave him tremendous punching power.

This Black tape was not only around, it was sold in the Sears catalogue...the one problem is that this product is designed to remain flexible and soft... lol. A slight detail. Yes it was around and even in my generation cloth electric tape was used to make handles on ropes. i suspect the tape made a good wrap, just not the brass knuckles type hyperbole.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Good thread.

Not a Dempsey expert, but what little I can add is that Dempsey entered the ring with his hands wrapped; pic below.



No issues raised from Willard's camp or Willard himself when they shook hands.

The bike tape was well known by trainers of the time, usually black.

Great Dempsey pic thank you for sharing

[travestyny]

Travesty

I don't care what you think anymore. Really. I put my information down so it can be referred back to. You are simply unable to accept differences of opinion. I cared about what you thought we discussed it there are things that you can't get past. So be it, learn to move on.

I started the thread not to gunk up the other thread, and again to put my information down so no words can be put in my mouth.

You want to make a further issue of this by all means do so... Take it do the dome, whatever. You are an idiot who just does not know when to accept a difference of opinion and I am sick of arguing.

My views are here anyone can refer to them...its really as simple as that.

Nothing you said indicates that there is a tape that is capable of causing disfigurement... The Mccoy quoat says "like Iron" which is descriptive in any number of ways, not an observation and does nothing to confirm such a tape.Your focused on me too much focus on what you are trying to tell people tape can cause for an opponent.

Now now, Billieau. I've pointed to various people that agree with the information I've pointed out. We are all "idiots" according to you. These are historians, pulitzer prize winners, trainers, boxers, authors, renowned reporters. Yep. All idiots.

You know, I had a lot of respect for you at the beginning of this thing. Had a lot of respect for you when things even got heated. But now to go with this "you're an idiot" talk. lol. That's something.


So like I said. I don't want to hear "take it to the dome." I want to hear that you will assist me in finding 3 unbiased posters for us to present our evidence to, and we will see whom they side with.

There was no reason for you to get so triggered as to result to name calling. This is the second time you've done so, and you can comb through all of my posts and not find one insult aimed toward you.

Do you agree to the debate in the thunderdome? Yes or no? That's all I want to know.

[GhostofDempsey]

Willard had a man in Dempsey's corner for the hand wrapping and walked Dempsey down to the ring to make sure gloves were not tampered with. Same with Willard. A guy by the name of Walter Monaghan stood over Demosey while his hands were wrapped, he was from Willard's corner. Neither man had any illegal tape, metal bolts or plaster in their gloves.

There was such a thing as insulation tape used in the early 1900s, but it was not prohibited at that time, anyone could use it legally. However, there is no mention of either man using this tape and each man had a rep in the other man's locker room during taping and walking to the ring.

[travestyny]

Your focused on me too much focus on what you are trying to tell people tape can cause for an opponent.

I've never been focused on you. The focus all along has been right here:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

It doesn't get any clearer than this, despite anything you want to pull out of your ass (and that's all you did). The damn guy told you exactly what he did as the only person who wrapped Dempsey's hands on this night. Told you it less than a year after the fight when he was STILL working with Dempsey. He CONTINUED to work with Dempsey. He even used it to DEFEND Dempsey. Dempsey NEVER denied this.


And according to you, it's all a lie.

This is the history section. Frankly, I would have expected not to find romantics here that want to keep the wool pulled over their eyes about these times. I'd have expected to find people who wanted to know more about the truth. I've documented everything with various quotations from the people involved. Billieau, you've shown one link....debunking the plaster and an iron spike. That's not relevant.

Do you accept the debate?

[travestyny]

Willard had a man in Dempsey's corner for the hand wrapping and walked Dempsey down to the ring to make sure gloves were not tampered with. Same with Willard. A guy by the name of Walter Monaghan stood over Demosey while his hands were wrapped, he was from Willard's corner. Neither man had any illegal tape, metal bolts or plaster in their gloves.

There was such a thing as insulation tape used in the early 1900s, but it was not prohibited at that time, anyone could use it legally. However, there is no mention of either man using this tape and each man had a rep in the other man's locker room during taping and walking to the ring.

Apparently you didn't read any of the information. No one argued that the tape was illegal. That's not the point at all. Try reading the information again.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Here is an excerpt that suggests an awful lot of people watched Dempsey's hands being wrapped and we are to believe that all of them were ignorant of any special tape trick De Forest might have been trying to pull. This seems unlikely.

The list is a who's, who of boxing, including Ring Lardner, Damon Runyon, Nat Fleischer, Grantland Rice, and commissioner William Muldoon. All had to be ignorant of the magic tape trick, I guess, or they were all in on it.

BTW - Why was Tom Mix there? Wasn't he a Saturday afternoon serial cowboy movie star?

The Willard quote only came after he takes the beating.

Although I should add that the piece does speak to the argument: when it came to taping hands there was much gamesmanship going on - but it also shows that everyone was paying close attention to what everyone else was doing.