The official 2018 Black History Month mega-thread

[Cheek busting]

Don't get me wrong...but when you speak of black history I don't really think Haiti is a shinning bright example of accomplishments. There are far better examples in the Caribbean where the people have done much better to say the least...and through a peaceful transition at that. This is the point I have been try to make to you but you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that for whatever reason.

But you're right - Haiti isn't a great example of black self-determination IN THE CONTEXT of success in today's world.

But then again, Greece isn't exactly the superpower it once was, yet we still recognize it for being the cradle of democracy, and western civilization.

Heh, i mean, it's not Haiti, one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world... But since that time they have taken a lot of L's, and now are a pretty poor country in comparison to other European countries. One of the worst hit countries after the global recession of 2008.

The fact is, Haiti is only the second country along with America to TAKE THEIR OWN FREEDOM from colonial powers. And they didn't have a standing army already like America with the weapons, population, resources, etc.

It is quite impressive what they managed to do, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be held out as a source of black pride, and success. Like I said, though, you can discriminate between the murder of the innocent whites, while still recognizing the movement for freedom from oppression, and slavery. Historical events are never as easy as "right, and wrong."

[jaded]

But you're right - Haiti isn't a great example of black self-determination IN THE CONTEXT of success in today's world.

But then again, Greece isn't exactly the superpower it once was, yet we still recognize it for being the cradle of democracy, and western civilization.

Heh, i mean, it's not Haiti, one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world... But since that time they have taken a lot of L's, and now are a pretty poor country in comparison to other European countries. One of the worst hit countries after the global recession of 2008.

The fact is, Haiti is only the second country along with America to TAKE THEIR OWN FREEDOM from colonial powers. And they didn't have a standing army already like America with the weapons, population, resources, etc.

It is quite impressive what they managed to do, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be held out as a source of black pride, and success. Like I said, though, you can discriminate between the murder of the innocent whites, while still recognizing the movement for freedom from oppression, and slavery. Historical events are never as easy as "right, and wrong."

Haiti and the US are NOT the only two countries to take their own freedom from colonial powers. Bulgaria from the Byzantine Empire/Dominican War of Independence 1185–1188/ Independence of Spanish-American colonies from Spain/Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia from France/Greece from the Ottoman Empire/Indonesia from the Netherlands...the list is way too long to even mention dating back to biblical times.

India kicked out the English without even fighting.

Gaspar Yanga was an African slave who spent four decades establishing a free settlement in Mexico. He lead an escaped band of slaves in 1570. In 1618 Gaspar Yanga negotiated with Spanish officials to grant freedom to the fugitive slaves and independence to a village near Veracruz. Gaspar Yanga’s Rebellion was the “first liberator of the Americas”. They were among the many free blacks of Mexico which had the second-highest slave population of the Americas after Brazil.

I'm not really sure how the comparison of Greece and the US fits in with what Haiti did. Of course Haiti won their independence but the leadership did not build a country or democracy with it...Americans and Greeks did as you know.

I've been to all three of those countries and I can tell you I left Haiti on the first flight out the same day I arrived. I had some business at the Canadian embassy and got the hell out as soon as I could. I've also been to Barbados a few times and I have to say...the Bajans have a paradise in that Island. They also have a very high literary rate...and excellent infrastructure and economy and acquired it all peacefully.

[Cheek busting]

Haiti and the US are NOT the only two countries to take their own freedom from colonial powers. Bulgaria from the Byzantine Empire/Dominican War of Independence 1185–1188/ Independence of Spanish-American colonies from Spain/Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia from France/Greece from the Ottoman Empire/Indonesia from the Netherlands...the list is way too long to even mention dating back to biblical times.

India kicked out the English without even fighting.

Gaspar Yanga was an African slave who spent four decades establishing a free settlement in Mexico. He lead an escaped band of slaves in 1570. In 1618 Gaspar Yanga negotiated with Spanish officials to grant freedom to the fugitive slaves and independence to a village near Veracruz. Gaspar Yanga’s Rebellion was the “first liberator of the Americas”. They were among the many free blacks of Mexico which had the second-highest slave population of the Americas after Brazil.

I'm not really sure how the comparison of Greece and the US fits in with what Haiti did. Of course Haiti won their independence but the leadership did not build a country or democracy with it...Americans and Greeks did as you know.

I've been to all three of those countries and I can tell you I left Haiti on the first flight out the same day I arrived. I had some business at the Canadian embassy and got the hell out as soon as I could. I've also been to Barbados a few times and I have to say...the Bajans have a paradise in that Island. They also have a very high literary rate...and excellent infrastructure and economy and acquired it all peacefully.

Obviously - I should have clarified The Western Hemisphere, and during that era of European conquest, and colonialism. Never heard of that story regarding Mexico, and it sounds pretty cool, but it was nowhere near the scale of what Haiti did..

The English LEFT India, they were not kicked out. Just like Apartheid SA gave up power. The reason the English left is because after WWII the world's opinion started to change regarding colonialism, racism, etc. "The Winds of Change" - as it's known colloquially, I believe. I'm sure if the English committed to the cause of remaining in India, they could have done so. Just like I guarantee the apartheid SA government could have militarily defeated the ANC, and the Russian/Chinese backed communist guerrilla groups (along with the Cubans that were there). I think they had a kill rate of like 11:1. They were a nuclear power and everything. But they GAVE up power, because they had become alienated from the world, numerous sanctions placed on them, and I'm sure after the thread of communism was gone, would only have been a matter of time before the West didn't militarily intervene.

What the Haitians did was unique, and impressive. They were slaves. They weren't free people discriminated against like in India, South Africa, etc. - they were literally chattel slaves. What they did stands out as unique.

I've lived around the world growing up, and have been to over 50 countries myself - but never been to Haiti, and don't have plans on it, so I'll take your word lol..

The comparison between Greece, and Haiti is to simply buttress my point that the Haitian revolution, and subsequent military victory over the colonial powers, should be a point of pride TO THIS DAY, despite the fact that the country never failed to materialize. Just like Greek today is a shell of what it once was, bankrupt, etc. - yet STILL, they were the cradle of Western civilization, and what they did back then WAS impressive.

[jaded]

Obviously - I should have clarified The Western Hemisphere, and during that era of European conquest, and colonialism. Never heard of that story regarding Mexico, and it sounds pretty cool, but it was nowhere near the scale of what Haiti did..

The English LEFT India, they were not kicked out. Just like Apartheid SA gave up power. The reason the English left is because after WWII the world's opinion started to change regarding colonialism, racism, etc. "The Winds of Change" - as it's known colloquially, I believe. I'm sure if the English committed to the cause of remaining in India, they could have done so. Just like I guarantee the apartheid SA government could have militarily defeated the ANC, and the Russian/Chinese backed communist guerrilla groups (along with the Cubans that were there). I think they had a kill rate of like 11:1. They were a nuclear power and everything. But they GAVE up power, because they had become alienated from the world, numerous sanctions placed on them, and I'm sure after the thread of communism was gone, would only have been a matter of time before the West didn't militarily intervene.

What the Haitians did was unique, and impressive. They were slaves. They weren't free people discriminated against like in India, South Africa, etc. - they were literally chattel slaves. What they did stands out as unique.

I've lived around the world growing up, and have been to over 50 countries myself - but never been to Haiti, and don't have plans on it, so I'll take your word lol..

The comparison between Greece, and Haiti is to simply buttress my point that the Haitian revolution, and subsequent military victory over the colonial powers, should be a point of pride TO THIS DAY, despite the fact that the country never failed to materialize. Just like Greek today is a shell of what it once was, bankrupt, etc. - yet STILL, they were the cradle of Western civilization, and what they did back then WAS impressive.

Although England chose to leave India...I doubt they would have done so if it were not for the resistance movement. I used "kicking them out" as a metaphor. In the end WWll weakened England so much that they choose not to fight the resistance.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Haiti is a shythole,,

There I said...

Now what

[Cheek busting]

Haiti is a shythole,,

There I said...

Now what

Nobody is denying that.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that an army made up of slaves defeated one of the greatest colonial powers in history for their freedom.

This should be a point of pride - that's the only point I was making.

How many movies, tv shows, etc. have been made about Spartacus? The Roman slave who led a rebellion... and LOST! He didn't even manage to win, yet still, he's held as a hero for the ages, who will have an enduring legacy because he stood up against an injustice - a crime against humanity - and he gave a hell of an effort, but failed.

Haiti did the same thing, AND WON.. Yet people downplay it.

Yes - there was atrocities committed against innocent White people. Just like Spartacus and his army killed innocent Roman citizens.

There's no reason we can't discriminate between what was right, and wrong, and still recognize the Haitian revolution as unique, and a point of pride for a country, and a people.

That's all..

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Nobody is denying that.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that an army made up of slaves defeated one of the greatest colonial powers in history for their freedom.

This should be a point of pride - that's the only point I was making.

Well they obviously can’t handle freedom.. look at them now

[Cheek busting]

Well they obviously can’t handle freedom.. look at them now

Well they weren't exactly welcomed with open arms to the international community after their freedom.

But I'm not here to debate about why they are in the situation they are in. And I won't deny that government corruption, and inept leadership for centuries isn't a huge reason.

I was just making a point about the Haitian revolution as a historical event - not Haiti in the context of the modern world.

[jaded]

Well they obviously can’t handle freedom.. look at them now

i didn't quite want to say it so bluntly but...when the other colonies got their independence they took over countries with an infrastructure and to some degree or another civilization. Haiti wasn't ready at the time for the independence they fought for and won because they didn't know to to create a functional civilization and never did.

[BoxingFan85]