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Do You Support Abortion?

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  • #61
    The views expressed below do not reflect my position on the matter, just an interesting study claiming that abortion decreases crime.

    Steven Levitt of the University of Chicago and John Donohue of Yale University revived discussion of this claim with their 2001 paper "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime". Donohue and Levitt point to the fact that males aged 18 to 24 are most likely to commit crimes. Data indicates that crime in the United States started to decline in 1992. Donohue and Levitt suggest that the absence of unwanted aborted children, following legalization in 1973, led to a reduction in crime 18 years later, starting in 1992 and dropping sharply in 1995. These would have been the peak crime-committing years of the unborn children.
    The authors argue that states that had abortion legalized earlier and more widespread should have the earliest reductions in crime. Donohue and Levitt's study indicates that this indeed has happened: Alaska, California, Hawaii, New York, and Washington experienced steeper drops in crime, and had legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade. Further, states with a high abortion rate have experienced a greater reduction in crime, when corrected for factors like average income.[4] Finally, studies in Canada and Australia purport to have established a correlation between legalized abortion and overall crime reduction.[4]
    The study was criticized by various authors, including a 2001 article by John Lott and John Whitley where they argued that Donohue and Levitt assume that states which completely legalized abortion had higher abortion rates than states where abortion was only legal under certain conditions (many states allowed abortion only under certain conditions prior to Roe) and that CDC statistics do not substantiate this claim. In addition, if abortion rates cause crime rates to fall, crime rates should start to fall among the youngest people first and then gradually be seen lowering the crime rate for older and older people. In fact, they argue, the murder rates first start to fall among the oldest criminals and then the next oldest criminals and so on until it last falls among the youngest individuals. Lott and Whitley argue that if Donohue and Levitt are right that 80 percent of the drop in murder rates during the 1990s is due solely to the legalization of abortion, their results should be seen in these graphs without anything being controlled for, and that in fact the opposite is true. In addition, Lott and Whitley pointed out that using arrest rate data to proxy crime rates is flawed because arrest for murder can take place many months or even years after the crime occurred. Lott and Whitley show that using the Supplemental Homicide Report, which links murder data for when the crime occurred with later arrest rate data, reverses Donohue and Levitt's regression results.[5]
    In 2005, Christopher Foote and Christopher Goetz claimed that a computer error in Levitt and Donahue's statistical analysis lead to an artificially inflated relationship between legalized abortion and crime reduction. Once other crime-associated factors were properly controlled for, the effect of abortion on arrests was reduced by about half. Foote and Goetz also criticize Levitt and Donahue's use of arrest totals rather than arrests per capita, which takes population size into account. Using Census Bureau population estimates, Foote and Goetz repeated the analysis using arrest rates in place of simple arrest totals, and found that the effect of abortion disappeared entirely.[6]
    In 2005 Levitt published rebuttal to these criticisms in which he re-ran his numbers to address the shortcomings and variables missing from the original study. The new results are nearly identical to those of the original study. Levitt posits that any reasonable use of the data available reinforces the results of the original 2001 paper.[7]

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rorymac View Post
      The views expressed below do not reflect my position on the matter, just an interesting study claiming that abortion decreases crime.
      Interesting article, I believe it. When you have a child that you really don't want that kid knows he is not wanted so he is going to do all that is necessary for attention which will result in crime in the long run. Its either you support abortion to lower the crime rate in the long run or increase spending for mental health patients because that is where they are headed. The money will be spent some way, some how.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by chibomber View Post
        Interesting article, I believe it. When you have a child that you really don't want that kid knows he is not wanted so he is going to do all that is necessary for attention which will result in crime in the long run. Its either you support abortion to lower the crime rate in the long run or increase spending for mental health patients because that is where they are headed. The money will be spent some way, some how.
        I also believe the results of the study. It provides an objective factor in support of abortion, but it doesn't answer the moral question.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by rorymac View Post
          I also believe the results of the study. It provides an objective factor in support of abortion, but it doesn't answer the moral question.
          Of course, morally it is ****ed up, but sometimes you have to think of it as what is good for all people in general, you also have to think of the child. Just because you feel obligated morally to have it doesn't make it a good situation for the child to be raised in. I work at an elementary school and you can just tell which kids are messed up because of the situation they are brought up in at home. It's sad but there really is no easy answer.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by chibomber View Post
            Of course, morally it is ****ed up, but sometimes you have to think of it as what is good for all people in general, you also have to think of the child. Just because you feel obligated morally to have it doesn't make it a good situation for the child to be raised in. I work at an elementary school and you can just tell which kids are messed up because of the situation they are brought up in at home. It's sad but there really is no easy answer.
            I agree with the social impacts you've mentioned, but there's still an issue. Many would argue that just because the kid might not "amount to much" doesn't mean he hasn't the right to live. It is also quite an assumption to make: I'm sure there are many kids raised in similar environments who have gone on to make a truly positive impact.

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            • #66
              im surprised that so many are voting no...wtf

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              • #67
                Originally posted by rorymac View Post
                I agree with the social impacts you've mentioned, but there's still an issue. Many would argue that just because the kid might not "amount to much" doesn't mean he hasn't the right to live. It is also quite an assumption to make: I'm sure there are many kids raised in similar environments who have gone on to make a truly positive impact.
                Of course there are kids that have grown up into horrible situations and have become something in life, that is a study I would like to find. I don't feel its an assumption when there are so many kids in foster homes, group homes, juvenile detention centers all over the US. It's sad but it's an endless cycle.

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                • #68
                  Its not as simple as black/white yes/no. The answer is unique to each case. e.g. rape is a bit different to getting pregnant then changing your mind.

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                  • #69
                    Yes. That's all.

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                    • #70
                      Never really had an opinion on the matter but when I really thought about it, it's fucked up. I can't say I support it.

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