If you are a creationist, don't even bother debating the validity of Evolution

[K-Nan]

religion waged war on logic and reason.. not the other way around.
when you got these ****s throwing their beliefs in your face they deserve to get **** thrown back at them.


btw Kaynan, how is it that atheists are know it alls yet when these dudes claim they know everything about everything in life including how we got here, if there is a god and the natural world you don't view them the same? I say that's really biased don't you think?

It's impossible for them to say the know. Belief is what religion hinges on. And knowing is different from believing. It's the cocky, annoying atheists who bring 'knowing' into the whole equation. As if that changes anything? Do you even know what the basis for religion is? If you did there would be no argument. You would realize that what you 'know' cannot change or influence what somebody 'believes'.

[Sin City]

It's impossible for them to say the know. Belief is what religion hinges on. And knowing is different from believing. It's the cocky, annoying atheists who bring 'knowing' into the whole equation. As if that changes anything? Do you even know what the basis for religion is? If you did there would be no argument. You would realize that what you 'know' cannot change or influence what somebody 'believes'.

they claim they know god and that he exists though.. there is where the termoil stands.

[squealpiggy]

I showed you amazing things, and you ignore them. You said you wanted proof of limbs returning, there are documented photos and xrays proving this from Lourdes France.

Photos and xrays which are curiously absent from your post. If you saw my initial response in the evolution topic you'll see that I took great care to provide sources for my claim. All you have done is claim it.

Also there is a woman who was born without pupils, and she can see now after meeting Padre Pio, and SHE STILL DOES NOT HAVE PUPILS. This woman is still alive. But, it doesnt matter to you.

An an invisible pink unicorn lives in my garden. I haven't bothered to provide any evidence of this because you haven't bothered to provide any for your unverified and highly improbably claim.

You may live your life the way you want to live it, fine. But, quit think ing you are brighter than every one else.

I don't think I'm brighter than everyone else. I think I'm brighter than a lot of people but I'm certainly shy of being brighter than everyone.

If you were something special I would have heard of you out side of Boxing scene.

I never knew that a person's worth was proportional to their fame. Did you learn that in Lourdes?

My father has invented a machine used with radiation, and he teaches. He is much brighter than you and he helps people, and he loves God.

My father is a wizard. He lives in a castle. Is it relevant to the discussion? No. Is it true? It doesn't matter. Because it isn't relevant to the conversation.

I would hate to be around you during Christmas time. Thank fully that will never happen.

I'm a joy at Christmas. I love Christmas. I like to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, which has nothing at all to do with Christ and everything to do with gift giving and feasting with my family and friends.

why arent people evolving anymore?

Human beings are by and large relatively stable, relatively free of predation and as social animals tend to look after the weaker members of society so they do not die out. Even so humans have shown signs of recent evolution, for example humans naturally lose the ability to metabolise lactose after they are weaned, however in the west where dairy is often consumed people have developed an ability to metabolise lactose later in life. In Asian cultures which typically do not rely on milk as a stable lactose intolerance is still common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose...tic_prevalence

You always talk about how you're respectful of other people's beliefs, but you're not.

I don't necessarily respect other peoples' beliefs (and I don't see why I necessarily should, after all a Christian who thinks that I am going to Hell is not respecting my beliefs) but I do respect their right to hold them. Considering that most of the comments directed towards me in this topic have been essentially dismissing my personal beliefs as either nonsense or evil, coupled with childish attempts to "convert" me I'm not sure why I am expected to hold back because I'm an atheist and yet nobody else is under any such obligation.

And because most of you are so ignorant of the fact that what these people have is FAITH. Maybe you should look in the dictionary for what that means. It doesn't connect with your laid out, logical approaches.

Religious people consider this to be a virtue for reasons I can't quite grasp. Let's put it in perspective: "Faith" means that you believe, with all your heart, without a shred of evidence. In fact the more evidence there is, the better the virtue because your faith needs to be stronger. And based on that baseless faith you not only live your own life but you also feel the need to attempt to impose your way of life on others through attempting to convert them, attempting to influence the education system, or failing all that trying to quell free speech on the basis that you find it offensive to be contradicted. And unfortunately all religions are guilty of this to one degree or another.

I think that is the problem with piggy. I respect him as a poster,(aside from our regular debates and him questioning every post of mine), yet he must understand and learn to live with the fact that Christianity is rooted in foundations stemming from Judaism and have a deep history.

If you really want to use the deep roots of Christianity as a source of pride then are you pretending that the violence, the blodshed, the genocide and the insanity which your holy book tells you makes up the history of the faith simply doesn't exist, or are you going to suggest that as cruel as it sounds God had a damned good reason to instruct the Israelites to murder everyone in the city of Midian and take the young girls as slaves?

I don't know why everyone who's a theist is "full of crap" like pig says.

I don't think that all theists are full of crap, I was illustrating a point about the lunacy of using the phrase "Well this is what I believe and you must respect it!". What if you believe that the holocaust never happened, or that black people are subhuman, or that women should be beaten for disobediance? Are those beliefs to be respected too, or does it only count if a bronze age text tells you to believe it?

I see a moral argument for God and even though there isn't as much hard evidence for God (other then Scriptures and faith), I believe Something rather then nothing, created the universe and all intelligent life in it. Why can't theists be shown respect for these thousands of years old religions and how far they have come.

How far have they come? Sure they no longer hate the Jews, the Muslims, the Pagans, the Heretics, the Adulterers, the Hindus or the Buddhists but they still hate the queers and of course those dastardly atheists, and they only stopped hating the other groups after some persuasion, so really has Christianity advanced that far?

[K-Nan]

they claim they know god and that he exists though.. there is where the termoil stands.

I never heard somebody say 'I know God.' The term is, "I believe in God."

But you knew that.

[Sin City]

I never heard somebody say 'I know God.' The term is, "I believe in God."

But you knew that.

Tyson and others have said that everything must have a creator therefor it's undeniable that there is a god.. I would say they are pretty much saying they KNOW he exists.

btw, using logic and reason.. who's belief do you think has more validity, a atheists or a theist?

[Don Corleone]

If you really want to use the deep roots of Christianity as a source of pride then are you pretending that the violence, the blodshed, the genocide and the insanity which your holy book tells you makes up the history of the faith simply doesn't exist, or are you going to suggest that as cruel as it sounds God had a damned good reason to instruct the Israelites to murder everyone in the city of Midian and take the young girls as slaves?

There can be many mis-conceptions of the Bible by reading it differently or incorporating your own views into it. But it still stand as the Bible. Just because you didn't understand the Bible's verses don't mean they are filled with errors. There is a difference of "Thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not murder". Generally, atheist like to refer to the King James Bible, which was translated in the 17th century using an archaic form of english. But many people who are believers and non-believers, cannot qualify to know what the text means. So atheist like to interpret the text as "thou shall not kill".

Yet when intrepreting in modern translations, it actually translates to "thou shall not murder" making a big difference since these are the real meanings of the Hebrew texts. This was to distinguish intentional vs non-intentional killing. And when you translate it in basic english it literaly means "Do not put anyone to death without cause". But this is because in Hebrew, unlike English, they use different words for different meanings including the intentional vs non-intentional killing. And it was non-punishable by Hebrew Law to have someone put to death for accidently killed another person. The word ratsach is kill but in this case, the word nakah is the real term and it refers to unintentional killing, but varys by context. To be convicted of murder would mean being put to death but there must be two or more eyewitnesses to the crime.

The fact is the cities under which God instructed to be destroyed, those cities did many things that were not pleasing and not "normal" to do. The cities were burning their own sons and daughters in sacrifices to their own gods/idols. These people were in no way innocent. We understand that prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, when Abraham asked what to do with the innocent apart from the guilty, God replied that he would save 50 rightetous people in those cities. And when Abraham kept insisting to reduce the amount of the rightetous, God replied each time that He would not destroy the rightetous of that city aside from the guilty. Interesting how these facts are overlooked and not accepted when someone like you piggy decided to question them.

I don't think that all theists are full of crap, I was illustrating a point about the lunacy of using the phrase "Well this is what I believe and you must respect it!". What if you believe that the holocaust never happened, or that black people are subhuman, or that women should be beaten for disobediance? Are those beliefs to be respected too, or does it only count if a bronze age text tells you to believe it?

Who said I believe in those ridiculous beliefs. Those beliefs have nothing to do with siding yourself towards Christian beliefs. So I don't know why you would mix those beliefs with any religious beliefs.

How far have they come? Sure they no longer hate the Jews, the Muslims, the Pagans, the Heretics, the Adulterers, the Hindus or the Buddhists but they still hate the queers and of course those dastardly atheists, and they only stopped hating the other groups after some persuasion, so really has Christianity advanced that far? [/QUOTE]

Are you labelling Christians or God Himself. Action by Christians should not be labelled as decisions made by Jesus. Questioning whether Christianity advanced is very much undermining what the Christian faith is all about. Jesus told us to love, and whether Christians actually exercise that or not shouldn't be blamed upon by Jesus, nor should it be cited as errors in the Bible. Your not really getting anywhere with that pig to be honest with you.

[K-Nan]

Tyson and others have said that everything must have a creator therefor it's undeniable that there is a god.. I would say they are pretty much saying they KNOW he exists.

btw, using logic and reason.. who's belief do you think has more validity, a atheists or a theist?

An atheist. But I admit that grudgingly. Cuz I hate y'all!

But I wove you, Vicky.

But like I said, the two platforms you guys are arguing from cannot make for a real argument. It's like two people competing, but they're shooting for different targets. Just doesn't work- you aren't gonna come to conclusions, and why would you try to dispel something that makes people happy?

[squealpiggy]

Theists generally look to the Bible for guidance

Christians look to the bible for guidance. Theists are people who believe in God. Any god.

Also, people are very into the idea of proving that God exists. Many people have set forth arguments and the cosmological argument is one of them.

The arguments tend to be either circular logic of no logic at all. It's either "Of God doesn't exist then how do you know His name!?" or "The earth is the right distance from the sun for life to exist therefore the magic Lord Jesus did it..."

Arguments regarding the unknowable are fine in theology but they don't have any place in science, and they're certainly not going to convince any ex-Catholic atheist that he's wasting his afterlife.

BTW, why are you speaking for pig? Can't he post for himself. Let the comments to pig be answered by pig.

The Israelites asked Moses this question about God. But there again they are a stiff-necked people.

[squealpiggy]

btw, using logic and reason.. who's belief do you think has more validity, a atheists or a theist?

I think it depends how each arrived at that conclusion. It's possible to be an atheist for totally irrational reasons. You know the Christian Fundamentalist explanation for atheism is a deliberate rejection of God rather than a lack of belief. Being an atheist to piss God off would be a fairly irrational reason.

There can be many mis-conceptions of the Bible by reading it differently or incorporating your own views into it. But it still stand as the Bible. Just because you didn't understand the Bible's verses don't mean they are filled with errors.

They are aither filled with errors, filled with really bizarre metaphors, or filled with the worst atrocities in the history of the world.

here is a difference of "Thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not murder". Generally, atheist like to refer to the King James Bible, which was translated in the 17th century using an archaic form of english. But many people who are believers and non-believers, cannot qualify to know what the text means. So atheist like to interpret the text as "thou shall not kill".

I understand the difference. Incidentally the KJV is the favourite of fundamentalist protestant Christians who have been known to make silly statements such as "If there is a discrepancy between the KJV and the Greek then the KJV is correct."

But yes, I understand the distinction. My problem is with the definition of lawful killings, as regards to the murder and enslavement of all the inhabitants of a city, men, women, children and if they are lucky the young girls can be spared for use as slaves. That was M idian. Not so lucky if you are living in a city in which our friend Yahweh isn't worshiped. If your local God is Baal you're ****ed.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

The fact is the cities under which God instructed to be destroyed, those cities did many things that were not pleasing and not "normal" to do.

As seen above those unnatural evil things essentially amounted to not prostrating themselves before a complete psychopath.

The cities were burning their own sons and daughters in sacrifices to their own gods/idols. These people were in no way innocent. We understand that prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, when Abraham asked what to do with the innocent apart from the guilty, God replied that he would save 50 rightetous people in those cities. And when Abraham kept insisting to reduce the amount of the rightetous, God replied each time that He would not destroy the rightetous of that city aside from the guilty. Interesting how these facts are overlooked and not accepted when someone like you piggy decided to question them.

Yes, Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed by God for bumming each other and that's all well and good. But how about this gem:

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Displaced, slaughtered, enslaved, abused and their places of worship dismantled. Why? Because they are not the Israelites. And God loves all of us?

Who said I believe in those ridiculous beliefs. Those beliefs have nothing to do with siding yourself towards Christian beliefs. So I don't know why you would mix those beliefs with any religious beliefs.

I never said you did. But if I have to respect your beliefs, no matter how ludicrous or offensive I find them to be, do you therefore respect abhorrent and irrational beliefs such as the ones I listed? Of is it only your beliefs that are worthy of respect?

Are you labelling Christians or God Himself.

The Christian faith at large.

[Don Corleone]

Christians look to the bible for guidance. Theists are people who believe in God. Any god.

Actually that is right, Christians are theists but I should've been more precise.

The arguments tend to be either circular logic of no logic at all. It's either "Of God doesn't exist then how do you know His name!?" or "The earth is the right distance from the sun for life to exist therefore the magic Lord Jesus did it..."

Arguments regarding the unknowable are fine in theology but they don't have any place in science, and they're certainly not going to convince any ex-Catholic atheist that he's wasting his afterlife.

Well if you don't believe then that is your choice. But a Creator certainly changes the way people view science and whether things are done naturally or whether our universe came about by the Supernatural. And whether the universe came into existence by nothing or whether a Greater Being caused it to happen. And whether life came into being by non-life. And whether everything we see (including your view of evolution) came about being by pure chance or by God, who was revealed (according to Christians) through Jesus Christs who was sinless and taught to repent.