Weight class- young fighter

[GelfSara]

Here's a picture of the greatest fighter who ever lived.

I certainly hope the point of the above is not "The greatest boxer of all time did not lift weights, therefore modern boxers should not lift weights".

[OctoberRed]

If your argument is that any additional speed one gains by improving one's strength to weight ratio via weight training is more-than-offset by a loss in endurance--why do modern boxers who successfully move up in weight divisions invariably add muscle mass via weight training?

Examples include Floyd Mayweather, Miguel Cotto, Roy Jones, Evander Holyfield, Manny Pacquiao, Andre Ward, Terence Crawford, "Canelo" Álvarez, Michael Spinks, Juan Manuel Márquez, Oscar De La Hoya, Vinny Paz, Sergio Martínez, etc.

Same can't be said for Chocolatito.

[Lomadeaux]

I certainly hope the point of the above is not "The greatest boxer of all time did not lift weights, therefore modern boxers should not lift weights".

The point is, Ray Robinson did not light weights. And he could beat any fighter today with ease.

[Lomadeaux]

If your argument is that any additional speed one gains by improving one's strength to weight ratio via weight training is more-than-offset by a loss in endurance--why do modern boxers who successfully move up in weight divisions invariably add muscle mass via weight training?

Examples include Floyd Mayweather, Miguel Cotto, Roy Jones, Evander Holyfield, Manny Pacquiao, Andre Ward, Terence Crawford, "Canelo" Álvarez, Michael Spinks, Juan Manuel Márquez, Oscar De La Hoya, Vinny Paz, Sergio Martínez, etc.

I’m explaining to you that muscle doesn’t mean ***** in boxing. I understand what you’re trying to say. And you’re trying to hold on to the fact that weights are great for you.

They can help you a little I’m sure. But they’re not needed at all. I mean I’ve used weights before but very little and they were very low weights.

They’re not needed in boxing and they create slower shorter muscles instead of longer faster muscles.

You’re arguing and age old rule on the internet man. Stop trying to grab on to something in order to try and ‘win’ an argument. Do not lift weights if you’re trying to box.

[TheDonMaster]

Haha. Don't skip leg day also.

Never skip leg day!

[GelfSara]

The point is, Ray Robinson did not light weights. And he could beat any fighter today with ease.

I was afraid you were attempting to make the argument that "Sugar Ray Robinson did not lift weights and was the greatest boxer of all time, therefore weight training is not advantageous to boxers"--and indeed that is the argument you are making.

The problem with this argument is so obvious I am very surprised you are attempting to make it:

Athletes compete directly against their contemporaries.

Sugar Ray Robinson--who competed from 1940 to 1965, and whose "prime" was in the 1940s and 1950s---competed in an era before boxers--or athletes generally--lifted weights.

Or...used anabolic steroids, (or EPO, or HGH), or had a "modern" understanding of nutrition and how to properly gain or lose weight, or ran in running shoes, or understood the importance of drinking water or other fluids during exercise (Robinson lost a bout vs Joey Maxim in 1952 via TKO caused by dehydration), and on and on and on.

To therefore suggest that because Robinson dominated non-weight training contemporaries 70 years ago that were he transported into a modern day setting he would either 1) Be incapable of improving his physical condition by availing himself of weight training and other methodologies that were not popular or did not exist "back then", or 2) would fare as well against modern opponents as he did 70 years without changing his training is...well, nonsensical is putting it mildly.

There are actually studies which touch on the subjects at hand, a few you may find interesting include http://www.yakademia.hu/s_and_p.pdf and https://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Ci...Amateur.9.aspx and https://link.springer.com/article/10...935-014-0355-2

As an aside--I find it fascinating that weight training is almost universally embraced by athletes and trainers and fans in every other sport EXCEPT boxing. Tennis, for example, has similar physiological requirements to boxing (it actually is less dependent on upper body strength) yet one never hears arguments that Connors and McEnroe (seen here: https://youtu.be/B9G3rcziBNU ) were in the same ballpark as Federer and Nadal (seen here: https://youtu.be/YEMBXNmOTOw ) as far as physical preparation for the game.

[GelfSara]

I’m explaining to you that muscle doesn’t mean ***** in boxing...

They’re not needed in boxing and they create slower shorter muscles instead of longer faster muscles.

The "slower shorter muscles" comment is particularly...bizarre. Muscles 1) have fixed origins and insertion points, and 2) since movement speed is essentially a test of strength to weight ratio within specific movement patterns, the reason sprinters (such as Michael Johnson, mentioned above) became faster as they became larger and heavier is because their gains in strength outpaced their gains in weight.

For example, if 150lb man begins a weight training program*, in 3 months he may 1) gain 5lbs (3.33% increase in bodyweight), and 2) improve his average strength by 50%.

WRT "muscle doesn’t mean ***** in boxing"--while the full implications of this comment stagger the imagination, two simple questions immediately spring to mind--1) Why then, do weight classes exist in boxing, and 2) Why, when boxers move up in weight classes, do they almost invariably add muscle?

*Needless to say this greater strength-to-weight-ratio is also why adult men typically outperform lighter teenage boys and women.

[GelfSara]

Same can't be said for Chocolatito.

It would be interesting to see a list of Chocolatito's fight-night weights vs. those of his opponents over the past 7 years or so. As a fighter moves up in weight classes he typically gains muscle mass--but the amount of muscle one can add is very limited, especially if one is not using drugs. It's entirely possible (not a fan of Chocolatito and haven't followed his career--just speculating) that while the Chocolatito of 2017 might beat the smaller, weaker Chocolatito of 2012, the Chocolatito of 2012 had an advantage in terms of muscle mass vs. his competition that the Chocolatito of 2017 no longer had.

[Lomadeaux]

The "slower shorter muscles" comment is particularly...bizarre. Muscles 1) have fixed origins and insertion points, and 2) since movement speed is essentially a test of strength to weight ratio within specific movement patterns, the reason sprinters (such as Michael Johnson, mentioned above) became faster as they became larger and heavier is because their gains in strength outpaced their gains in weight.

For example, if 150lb man begins a weight training program*, in 3 months he may 1) gain 5lbs (3.33% increase in bodyweight), and 2) improve his average strength by 50%.

WRT "muscle doesn’t mean ***** in boxing"--while the full implications of this comment stagger the imagination, two simple questions immediately spring to mind--1) Why then, do weight classes exist in boxing, and 2) Why, when boxers move up in weight classes, do they almost invariably add muscle?

*Needless to say this greater strength-to-weight-ratio is also why adult men typically outperform lighter teenage boys and women.

Listen. Go lift a bunch of weights and go try and fight. Prove us wrong.

[GelfSara]

Listen. Go lift a bunch of weights and go try and fight. Prove us wrong.

Countless others have already done that for me.

One of the first notable ones:

https://www.si.com/vault/1985/10/07/...-strange-ideas

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-09-...michael-spinks

https://youtu.be/XokRWtl_Rqw