getting stronger while losing mass..?

[gigogreco]

i boxed, played football, started to run and lifting weights wasnt really necessary for those sports, so its something i havent done in a while, actually several years. I´ve now switched to mma and i need to get a bit stronger, as mma require that.

im starting from scratch strengthwise, so there is major room for improvement, but i dont want to get bigger, i actually want to lose a couple a pounds while getting stronger.

someone mentioned isometrics, but i dont really know enough about the specific exercises, so dont know if those are good.

perhaps some of you guys can be of assistance, regarding a traing regime/technique that would be good for me.?

thanks in advance
dennis

[Jack3d]

Keeping your weight down is just about limiting your calorie intake.

Starting Strength
Bill Starr 5x5
Westside for Skinny Bastards

all good programs

[josh-hill]

there are two ways of getting stronger. increasing the cross sectional area of the contractile proteins (bigger muscles) AND learning how to recruit more fibres at once. it is possible to train your CNS (central nervous system) to make you stronger by recruiting more fibers at once. however you cant add muscle mass while loosing weight.

what i would suggest is to work out the weight you want to fight at, and work out how much lean muscle mass you need to fight at that weight. then do a program eating more to get bigger (muscle and fat) then once you reach the amount of muscle you need work on strength and explosiveness teaching those muscles to work together well. this is where you can loose the fat and get down to the weight you want to be while getting stronger.

thats just my 2c

[J.Dempsey]

what the guys above say seem pretty good.

my quick advice (as I have done this) would be 2 things:

1. for mass, it's all about diet, if your body does not have the nutrition/proteins to bulk/fatten up then it can't. So eat less or eat small but often.

2. for strength, train heavy as you can, and do less reps (no more than 20 for each exercise altogether) and definitely not to failure. You want to avoid ripping up your muscles, which then get bigger when they repair. Isometrics is great as it builds tendon strength, which is good strength without bulk. When you do your strength exercises, try 0 seconds up and 5 seconds down (kind of dynamic isometrics)
Great strength exercises I'd recommend: dead lifts, squats, pull ups, push ups for pull ups and push ups add weights to yourself for strength. Again, keep reps down and weight as high as you can go and keep technique

gdluck

[gigogreco]

thanks for the advice guys, notes are taken

would it be better, if i started out a bit slow, perhaps let my body get used to lifting again, perhaps over a period of 2-4 weeks, before i jump straight into lifting heavy.?

josh hill: right now im weighing 80-81 kg and if im going to compete its going to be in 77 or 72, if i can get that low, would you still recommend i bulk up, when im somewhat far away from the weight .?

J dempsey: really like the idea regarding dynamic isometrics, seems a great way to gain strength and explosiveness.

Im making sure my body is getting enough protein, through shakes and food. So even with more training and much less calorie/energy intake, my body is still maintaining fine energy levels and performs fine.

[*OG Wenger*]

Believe it or not muscle strength and hypertrophy are 2 completely different things. Basically it's very possible to get stronger without gaining muscle mass.

Basically you want to only use the creatine phosphate energy system without your muscles using lactic acid for energy. In simple terms to achieve this you need to do 1-4 reps at around 80-90% of your 1 rep maximum (basically as heavy as you can handle). Have around 5 minute breaks between sets to allow the ATP (muscle energy) to recover.

[josh-hill]

thanks for the advice guys, notes are taken

would it be better, if i started out a bit slow, perhaps let my body get used to lifting again, perhaps over a period of 2-4 weeks, before i jump straight into lifting heavy.?

josh hill: right now im weighing 80-81 kg and if im going to compete its going to be in 77 or 72, if i can get that low, would you still recommend i bulk up, when im somewhat far away from the weight .?

J dempsey: really like the idea regarding dynamic isometrics, seems a great way to gain strength and explosiveness.

Im making sure my body is getting enough protein, through shakes and food. So even with more training and much less calorie/energy intake, my body is still maintaining fine energy levels and performs fine.

i ramble a bit so skip to the end for the cliffs.

Yeah its a really good idea to ease your way in. what you might want to do is start by working your way up to your 1rep max, so you know what it is for each exercise. you want to be working at about 70% of it for mass.

it all depends on how lean you are and when your first fight is. you want to be at about 7-11% bf at the weight you fight at. i dont know your bf% so i cant work out the maths for you but you dont want to cut down to 8% and find you are too light.

i dont know alot about isometrics, but from what i have read they are really useful for the grappling aspect of mma, but less so for the striking.

Believe it or not muscle strength and hypertrophy are 2 completely different things. Basically it's very possible to get stronger without gaining muscle mass.

Basically you want to only use the creatine phosphate energy system without your muscles using lactic acid for energy. In simple terms to achieve this you need to do 1-4 reps at around 80-90% of your 1 rep maximum (basically as heavy as you can handle). Have around 5 minute breaks between sets to allow the ATP (muscle energy) to recover.

they are different but linked. the overall strength of a contractile protein is determined by its cross sectional area. hypertrophy isnt always a growth in cross sectional area, sometimes its growth in sarcoplasmic fluid (look up myofibrilar vs sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for more information) but its very rare you get one without the other.

what you say about lifting is similar to what a leading mma coach said. he recommends 6-10 mins of LIGHT (really light, power walking speed) cardio to help the blood flow to muscles to bring more atp and stop the buildup of lactic acid (or what people thought was lactic acid before they discovered it didnt exist)

cliffs:
1) ease in slowly
2) if you need to put on muscle do it before you work on strength
lift heavy for strength
3)isometrics build good strength and muscle endurance useful for grappling, but not explosiveness
4) speed / explosive work can be done by explosive lifting and plyometrics and other ways, but is best left till after you are done training strength. they are taxing on the body and if you do it before you have built your strength in the muscles and connecting tissue you will hurt yourself

[*OG Wenger*]

i ramble a bit so skip to the end for the cliffs.

Yeah its a really good idea to ease your way in. what you might want to do is start by working your way up to your 1rep max, so you know what it is for each exercise. you want to be working at about 70% of it for mass.

it all depends on how lean you are and when your first fight is. you want to be at about 7-11% bf at the weight you fight at. i dont know your bf% so i cant work out the maths for you but you dont want to cut down to 8% and find you are too light.

i dont know alot about isometrics, but from what i have read they are really useful for the grappling aspect of mma, but less so for the striking.



they are different but linked. the overall strength of a contractile protein is determined by its cross sectional area. hypertrophy isnt always a growth in cross sectional area, sometimes its growth in sarcoplasmic fluid (look up myofibrilar vs sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for more information) but its very rare you get one without the other.

what you say about lifting is similar to what a leading mma coach said. he recommends 6-10 mins of LIGHT (really light, power walking speed) cardio to help the blood flow to muscles to bring more atp and stop the buildup of lactic acid (or what people thought was lactic acid before they discovered it didnt exist)

cliffs:
1) ease in slowly
2) if you need to put on muscle do it before you work on strength
lift heavy for strength
3)isometrics build good strength and muscle endurance useful for grappling, but not explosiveness
4) speed / explosive work can be done by explosive lifting and plyometrics and other ways, but is best left till after you are done training strength. they are taxing on the body and if you do it before you have built your strength in the muscles and connecting tissue you will hurt yourself

A good read there, you seem to know your stuff. But the moral of the story is you can get stronger without building muscle.

Also could you please elaborate on your comment about lactic acid not existing?

[josh-hill]

A good read there, you seem to know your stuff. But the moral of the story is you can get stronger without building muscle.

Also could you please elaborate on your comment about lactic acid not existing?

Thanks, ive had 6 months off training due to shoulder surgery so ive been using it to read lots of scientific journels / articles about it. yeah you can get much stronger without getting bigger, but if you are going to put on size its best to do that first (and you will get stronger by doing that anyway).

i cant remember the details of the lactic acid thing, i dont think ive ever seen the full explanation. i head about it by reading stuff by lyle from body recomp and joel from 8 weeks out. basicaly noone understands and its not important to how you train but lactic energy production creates h+ (or maybe h-, i cant remeber) in the blood and that is acidic, i think it comes from PMK breakdown but im a bit hazy about the details, and there is also lactate in the blood. now people think the lactate helps combat the fatiuge but is used as an indicator of fatigue.


anyway, lactic acid was what was presumed to build up in the muscles. turns out its not that, but something that works in an identical way, so really you might as well just say its lactic acid and let the science guys quibble about what it really is. i just thought id mention it as a sort of disclaimer so that people couldnt pick up on the fact i said lactic acid


edit: i just had a quick look for something that explains it better and this article is good.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tra...ng-part-1.html

[*OG Wenger*]

Thanks, ive had 6 months off training due to shoulder surgery so ive been using it to read lots of scientific journels / articles about it. yeah you can get much stronger without getting bigger, but if you are going to put on size its best to do that first (and you will get stronger by doing that anyway).

i cant remember the details of the lactic acid thing, i dont think ive ever seen the full explanation. i head about it by reading stuff by lyle from body recomp and joel from 8 weeks out. basicaly noone understands and its not important to how you train but lactic energy production creates h+ (or maybe h-, i cant remeber) in the blood and that is acidic, i think it comes from PMK breakdown but im a bit hazy about the details, and there is also lactate in the blood. now people think the lactate helps combat the fatiuge but is used as an indicator of fatigue.


anyway, lactic acid was what was presumed to build up in the muscles. turns out its not that, but something that works in an identical way, so really you might as well just say its lactic acid and let the science guys quibble about what it really is. i just thought id mention it as a sort of disclaimer so that people couldnt pick up on the fact i said lactic acid

Interesting. I'm going to bring that up with my tutor tomorrow.