Kickboxing Should Be Called Kicking

[EzzardFan]

I agree with most part, except that I would classify Boxing as a martial art, if you put kickboxing/muay thai in that category, then so should Western Boxing. I agree with you on most part, especially the importance of boxing. I was sparring someone kickboxing, and someone was watching (this was a long time ago, when I was starting up) and he made an advise to master your boxing skills, which to this day I agree.

That said, I do find that your later part of your post is a little too bias on Boxing. I don't want to start a "Which martial arts style" is the strongest and I understand that this is, afterall, a boxing forum. I don't think there is a martial art that is perfect. There are indeed some that are more effective than others on paper. I personally believe that you can craft the sharpest blade on Earth or develop the lightest gun with the most powerful bullets that can penetrate through absolutely anything. But if the wielder isn't competent enough then the object (which in this case, the skills/technique in martial arts of any form) is useless.

I do want to know what you mean behind boxing is method? Because everytime people ask about punching power on the forums, you will always get "Its mainly about technique." Now isn't that the same as kicking?

Bruce Lee said it best when he said that people are so confined by styles they treat it as a "Gospel", I believe that when you are talking about FIGHTING in general, it is more about how you as an individual can execute whatever technique you have learnt in the most effective way and of course to adapt and be flexible whilst executing it. It doesn't matter what style someone's using... take your story at the end for example, you and your friend could switch roles and you would probably knock the bastard over with whatever the name of the MA that your friend was showing you and your friend would have had trouble boxing the bag... this is assuming that you are the better conditioned individual.

If I was to be bias with boxing in its application to general fighting, I would say that it takes less effort to punch then to kick. Yet that lack of effort can generate a more efficient amount of power than a kick... notice I said efficient and not powerful because I'm just simply referring to the amount of energy used to the power exerted ratio here.

Oh speaking of Bruce Lee, I think the method you were referring to to stop a kick is similar to the ankle tap that he does in JKD right? Watch the Chuck Norris VS Bruce Lee fight at the end of Way of the Dragon.

AGAIN: I am not saying you are wrong, nor am I trying to start a which martial arts is the best method, and I'm just using Bruce Lee as a person I can reference to about the philosophies of Martial arts. So please don't get sensitive about anything I just said.

No worries I liked your reply. Yes the stop kicking was pioneered by Bruce Lee (to the best of my knowledge, as was predominantly kicking with the lead leg).

By method I mean that boxing imbues remaining relaxed, deception, peripheral vision, mobility, range, anticipation, defense, timing, counter strking, balance, weight transfer, leverage, and tactics. In my experience those are the key elements to winning a street fight, rather than the specific techniques you apply. The one I rate most important is defence, as in defensive skills. Things like not pawing your arms forward to block, catching punches on your elbow, anticipating your opponent and beating him to the strike.

And by tactics I mean taking his defence apart, back footing him, breaking him down, making him cower, then delivering the KO by whatever means.

They don't teach that **** in karate!

[austinlarg]

checked out your school's website and really couldn't find much out about them.
not sure if it's the same there, but in Texas there are a lot of Tae Kwon Do schools saying they teach muay thai with absolutely no muay thai background.
Not trying to bash your gym, because i know nothing about how you guys train, but just wanted to let you know that i've seen that kinda thing happen before.

Oh most definitely. It is a Tae Kwon Do school first and foremost. I'm just going there for now because its the cheapest and I need to work out.

I was working out with the Tsutsui brothers who are the head muay thai coaches at the Gracies gym in Pleasant Hill. Those two guys are mean and carry a whole lot of ISKA titles with them.

I lost my job so I'm doing what's efficient for me right now. But believe me, once I get a new job, I'll be training with a legit muay thai gym...possibly even Fairtex here in SF.

[Righthandbanger]

So after four years of boxing, I decided that I was okay to move on to muay thai kickboxing. I have only been at the gym for two weeks now but I noticed that these guys do NOT know how to box. Simple things like keeping your opposite elbow in when you jab.

It is quite sad. Just wanted to share that with you.

You have discovered nothing new.
I went from sanda and muay thai to boxing. after a few technical adjustments in boxing I could pretty much fight without kicking at all

[I'd rather box]

Same can be said the opposite way though, saying that boxers do not know how to kick, or defend a kick for that matter.

To each their own I guess. BTW, considering you have been there two weeks, have they tried to change your style to make you more like the way they do it and you say something like "No this makes more sense, trust me" considering your experience? (<--- seriously not trying to be a smart ass, I am very curious. Considering your training and their lack of comprehension of the sweet science, I can imagine they tried to teach you incorrectly a few times)

Muay Thai fighters generally have ****ty hands. But, who needs hands when you have elbows, knees and the clinch !! I'll take a great kicker over a great puncher any day of the week(and if that kicker has a great clinch game, it's over) !!

Another thing, in Thailand, punches landed aren't given as high a mark in the scorecards compared to someone executing a great elbows/throws/knees/and control in the clinch, because it's considered a higher degree of difficulty executing those three. I agree.

I actually went in and met the trainer before I started. I explained to him that I trained boxing first because it's more technical and that the muay thai was just to compliment my boxing.

With that being said, he respects what my thought process is and does not try to change too much of what I do. He likes the fact that I box because I pay more attention to detail than others.

Funny thing is that kicking to me comes naturally. He swears I've had some kind of kickboxing experience.

But the big thing he HAS tried to "adjust" is my stance. And that's never gonna change.

Hmm, that's your trainer's philosophy. I've trained with Master Toddy, etc.. and there's more than one stance used in Muay Thai, it all depends what you're trying to do at that particular moment and what that particular fighter's capabilities are.

A squared up stance works well if for someone who is adept with kicking with either leg. Guys who can switch up with ease.

Another stance is where they put most of their weight on their backfoot, usually when a Thai fighter is in this stance, he's probably looking to unleash a front kick or a lead leg roundhouse(See Buakaw)

Bottom line, Thai fighters simply don't stay in one-stance during a fight, it depends on the situation. Hell, if I'm scoring with a front-kick all day on a guy, then I might just stay on that stance the whole time.

As a guy who just got back from training in Thailand, I can tell you that you're 100% correct. The punches have no power because they teach you to stand extremely square, allowing you to get barely any rotation, and to punch with your elbows flared out. They don't punch with their body. The only thing worse than the lack of power is the defense though. I can't even figure how many times I saw a guy throw a punch straight down the middle, right through the Thai fighter's wide open guard. If there was power on it, it'd be lights out. Anyway, my boxing skills are extremely poor, and I spent months training in Thailand. Hence I only think about boxing right now.

The thing is, punching in Muay Thai doesn't really score in fights. I've heard its because punches are more likely to KO a person than kicks, and if there's an early KO there's less fight to gamble on. And ******** is a BIG deal in Thailand, to say the least. In addition, punches are mainly used to set up kicks rather than do damage.

The Dutch have a much better style of kickboxing than the Thais imo. Their boxing skills are much better, and they still kick very hard. Honestly though, I think kicking is very overrated. Kicks just don't KO people that often. People who kick a lot usually just win on points.

Watch some Giorgio Petrosyan fights. I'd be curious to hear what you guys think of his boxing skills.

#1 As I mentioned earlier, I've trained under Master Toddy(and some of his former pro fighters), it doesn't get any bigger than him. And the first thing he corrected me on, was keeping my elbows in, it may just be, that particular gym you joined. I have not met any Thai fighter or have trained under any Thai fighter who taught me the way you're describing your experience. Quite the opposite.

The Dutch do emphasize punching more. But, kicking reigns supreme. I'll take a great kicker over a great puncher, any day of the week !! A guy with great hands don't mean ****, if he's infront of a great clinch master with a strong kicking game to boot !!

[Steven Adams]

So after four years of boxing, I decided that I was okay to move on to muay thai kickboxing. I have only been at the gym for two weeks now but I noticed that these guys do NOT know how to box. Simple things like keeping your opposite elbow in when you jab.

It is quite sad. Just wanted to share that with you.

hehehehe well they may be thinking.. 'boxing should be called punching'

the angles are different in both sport, and stances and footwork are different

[I'd rather box]

hehehehe well they may be thinking.. 'boxing should be called punching'

the angles are different in both sport, and stances and footwork are different

The thing about it is though. Muay Thai is not just kicking and punching. It involves clinching, kneeing/elbows and throws. I can see why they really don't emphasize the punch game as much as the other aspects of the game.

It's not just kickboxing, it's the science of 8 limbs !!

[I'd rather box]

I don't watch a lot of kickboxing, I simply find it a bit boring and seeing those low kicks makes me wanna cringe BUT indeed japanese welterweights are something else, I also think Arthur Kiyshenko has a wicked punching technique for a kickboxer

However the stance and the technique are so different from boxing for the simple reason that a boxer isn't exposed to any kicks in a fight, thus he can lean forward alot more and can place his weight in the punches without worrying there's a flying knee prepared to hit him in the gut. And yeah indeed the punching turns more into a diversion especialy in muay thai.

I agree with the thread starter on the name though, it SHOULD just be called kicking, a LOT of fights are won by the dude that has more calcium in his leg bones. And beside real technical fighters all you get to see is low kick low kick and some more low kick untill one guy just had enough.

High level Muay Thai fights aren't just about low-kicking. Actually, low kicks are kept to a minimum or none at all in the early rounds

No matter how conditioned ones shins are, it's still painful. That's why kicks to the thighs are reserved for the later rounds.

That's funny you say that about low kicking, one of the more famoust American kickboxers was talkin' the same ****, yet they had no answers for it when one of 'em fought a Thai fighter, lmao. It was one of the Roufus brothers. They eventually ended up taking up Muay Thai themselves, lol. Talk about "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

[envirocopy512]

#1 As I mentioned earlier, I've trained under Master Toddy(and some of his former pro fighters), it doesn't get any bigger than him. And the first thing he corrected me on, was keeping my elbows in, it may just be, that particular gym you joined. I have not met any Thai fighter or have trained under any Thai fighter who taught me the way you're describing your experience. Quite the opposite.

The Dutch do emphasize punching more. But, kicking reigns supreme. I'll take a great kicker over a great puncher, any day of the week !! A guy with great hands don't mean ****, if he's infront of a great clinch master with a strong kicking game to boot !!

1) Don't really know what to say to the first paragraph, just that your experience was different than mine then.

2) Have you ever watched Nopparat Keatkhamtorn fight? He's got EXACTLY what you mentioned in the second paragraph--very powerful kicks and a world-class clinch game, one of the strongest in Thailand. Yet he's been KO'd by good punchers MULTIPLE times. Its his absolute kryptonite. Anuwat, Yodsanklai, Bovy...all beat him with punches. He's known for struggling against guys with good boxing skills. So what you said is simply wrong.

[Pork Chop]

there's a lot of stuff on this thread i just don't agree with and don't feel like going point for point.

I'll try and do the cliff notes best as possible.

1. to the op - the reason I brought up the TKD is that they tend to be even worse with hands than most MT people. It's all but guaranteed that they have no hands if they're not training boxing concurrently.

2. real good kicks to the head knock people out.
anybody saying differently hasn't been kicked in the head, or if they have it's been by a b!tch slap TKD style kick.
dig up mercer's reaction to being kicked in the head the first time.
At the very least kicks can open up opportunities for your hands


3. the post on the 3 effective kicks reads like the Tao of JKD.
I use the lead side kick on occasion, especially if I'm worried that the other guy's good at catching my push kick, but it's kind of a pain in the azz, because it's hard to follow up with punches after you blast the sidekick & it doesn't do enough damage to incapacitate. I get a lot more mileage out of my round kick.

4. Supposedly Nopparat had Bovy ready to go in their last fight but didn't pull the trigger and was practically booed out of the stadium. Guys like Sudsakorn & Kaoklai who have cr@p for hands do take a lot of flack in the muay thai community.

5. For the guy that bashed UFC for the guys keeping too much distance: distancing when kicks is involved is going to be further than when it's just punches (legs are longer than arms after all), and distancing when wrestling involved is further still. of course you could always try to use boxing distance in mma and see how far it gets you.

[envirocopy512]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think head kicks can't knock people out, because obviously they can. Someone's shin connecting with your head or neck is trouble. But the problem is most people keep their hands up high, and its very hard for something as big as your shin to sneak past their gloves. a punch on the other hand can more easily pierce someone's guard.

one thing I should mention in defense of kicks is that they break peoples' arms fairly often. someone like Yodsanklai hitting you in the forearm is bad news. but still, I don't feel a strong kick is as reliable a finishing tool as a strong punch, due to the reason in the first paragraph. imo the best fighter would be someone with strong boxing skills first and foremost, and a very powerful kick as a mere supplement to that.