Lewis vs. prime Tyson... who would have won?

[hollister]

I know I picked Lewis, but I've been brainstorming and feel that there may be other factors that could possibly change the outcome. First, would Tyson be given stilts or at least elevator shoes? Would he be allowed to use those shoes with the wheels in the bottom of them? And finally, would Donald Hoskins be his trainer, because if so then it's likely he would have adopted a more fleetfooted style and would have probably frustrated Lewis to some extent as he danced around the ring like Ali.

[Bogler]

sorry youngin i dont think so

don't worry about opinions on tyson on this board. most of those here who hate tyson or dont appreciate what he did in his prime are the youngins who weren't even alive or were babies when tyson was in his prime. they just remember the tyson under don king.

[PATO 1]

so you think he had better ability and record than LL

[Left2body]

The big question here is:

Did Tyson have the feet to be fleet footed?

[Bogler]

so you think he had better ability and record than LL

couldnt say he had the better record, he messed up under don king. but sure he had the ability to KO lewis, they just have it in different styles.

[SnoopySmurf]

Tyson would have still had Cus D'Mato, he would be bobbing and weaving and if he can't reach Lewis's chin, Tyson would kill his body.

Prime Tyson.

Atomic Bull was Tyson's sparring partner and he KO'd Lewis. Then he had a mental breakdown at the rematch.

[hollister]

The big question here is:

Did Tyson have the feet to be fleet footed?

I was wondering, lol

[K-DOGG]

Okay, it's a history/fantasy match-up, but it's a quiet week, so lets run with it.

The commonly held view (by general public at least) is that a prime Tyson would have gone through Lewis, and, to be fair, I used to think this myself. But it seems a little disingenuous to Lewis for him to get the butt end of any Tyson/Lewis debate when the guy does actually possess a "W" over him on his record.

The idea of Lewis fighting prime Tyson also takes away from the fact that the Lewis that was around during prime Tyson era would have been a relative novice and not in HIS prime.

I think it's pretty much a given that Lewis would have beaten any version of Tyson post-jail, if only by comparing their common opponents. Triangular logic proves nothing, styles mean everything, but from 1993 on Lewis was taking out opponents with ease that Tyson was ... not labouring with... but taking a longer time about it. He also of course beat Holyfield.

Anyway, I was looking at my Tyson DVDs the other day and it's easy to overrate prime Tyson just on how exciting he looked. Sure, he's fast, explosive and all the rest of it, and his boxing skills are underrated. But he struggles with taller, unintimidated opponents that fight back... just look at his fight with James Tillis, which was perhaps closer than the cards had it.

Bottom line is, Tyson was perhaps an extremely enjoyable hype, a tremendous, tremendous boxer, but one who never had the mental fortitude to fight back from adversity and had only an aged Larry Holmes and a blown-up Light Heavy as the best names on his ledger. I say this not to detract from Mike, whom I love, but just to get it in perspective. His fights are infinitely more exciting to watch than Big Len's, but taking out the likes of Sammy Scaff and Ricardo Spain isn't top ten all-time heavyweight list.

So the question... who would have won?

A friend of mine likes to do these things in threes; and on this occassion, I will use his tactic because I can see this both ways.

If we're talking "true prime", then we are talking about Tyson circa 1986-91; but with Rooney in his corner and Jaccob alive. Mike, as I've stated before and as your are alluding to, was not the most confident of fighters and needed that moral support to be at his best. He has said that after Jaccob died and Givens entered the picture, it all became about money. When he fought Spinks in 88, it was a chance for him to release all the pressure that had been building up from the outside because boxing wasn't "fun" anymore. For Mike to be at his absolute "best" we're going to have to find a Mike that actually enjoyed fighting and boxing and who loved paying attential to the most minute of details in the ring, whose strength was speed and elusiveness, and not just kayo power. The Tyson to use, would probably be the one that destroyed either Briggs or Holmes and maybe even Tubbs....although he'd just gotten married and Jaccobs was dying, it was still early on. Another important thing to remember was Rooney's ability to reel Tyson in and calm him down into fighting and help him re-focus when things weren't goint according to plan, as in his fights with Thomas and Tucker.

For Lewis, his prime, IMO would be somewhere between Tommy Morrison and David Tua....let's say the Golota fight. At this stage, he'd grown comfortable with his new trainer, Emmanuel Steward and had really smoothed out many of the bad habbits he'd developed under Pepe Correa and his previous trainer, whose name escapes me. The Lewis that boxed Morrison's ears off was a thing of beauty as he exposed Tommy's one-dimensionalness, and utilized a telephone-pole jab on more occassion than seen previously. Againt Ray Mercer, we saw the tougher side of Lennox Lewis, who was not afraid to mix it up and showed a street-wise toughness in addition to his superior boxing technique, even though he wasn't allowed by Mercer to fight at long range as he preferred to do. And, of course, against Golota, we saw a killer instinct that rivals Tyson's. He hurt his man with the first solid right hand he landed and proceeded to get him out of there. Sure, Golota has shown mental weakness in other fights; but, at the time, he was coming off two dominating performances over Lewis's Amercian counter-part, Rid**** Bowe, even without the low-blows. The Golota fight gave us all some perspective on "what could have happened" had he and Bowe have clashed.


Anyway, that's the criteria, I'm going to use.....back in a few.

[Mr_Ruckus]

I think Iron Mike would get frustraited with the distance that Lewis can create and stop throwing punches. Mike would get discouraged if he didnt put L.L. away early, and Lennox would go on to a points victory.

[K-DOGG]

....Right, okay. Here we go; this is how I see their initial math of three.

The factors to consider in this match-up are speed differential and height difference as well as flaws in both fighter's make-up. Mike had much faster hands than Lewis; but Lewis also had a tremendous reach advantage and was physically much stronger than Mike, which would help him tremendously on the inside in preventing Mike from unleashing those blazingly fast combinations. Also, Mike would have to get past those long arms of Lennox's. Weaknesses: Mike was prone to fall into clinches once his momentum spent itself in the first 4 to 5 rounds. Lennox had a tendency to be lazy with his jab and wasn't a great infighter.

Mike would come out, guns blazing, looking to take Lewis's head off; Mike never heard of the concept of a "feeling out process" and Lewis would be ready for this, keeping his left extended, trying to keep Mike at the end of it and catch him coming in with that big right. Mike, realizing he couldn't just walk in to pay-dirt, would begin bobbing and weaving, looking for opportunities to launch a four punch combo. Seeing Lewis's exposed ribs, Mike would begin pounding away and as Lewis attempts to grab, Mike squats lower, under his arms, and leaps up a couple of shots that just miss before Lennox folds those huge arms around him. Mike would be pounding Lewis's side with his free hand...probably the right...until Mitch Halpern separtates the two.

The first three rounds would pretty much follow this pattern, with Mike occasionally landing on Lennox's head and rocking the big man enough to where Lewis would be forced to tie him up. Lennox would find Mike next to impossible to hit, early on; but would keep Mike at bay off and on with a snappy jab. Lewis would then begin working Mike's body a little in order to slow his movement down. Going to Mike's body, however, leaves Mike an opening to Lewis's jaw and sooner or later, he'd hurt Lennox; but remember, THIS Lewis is prepared to be hit and hurt, unlike the ones who underestimated Rahman and McCall. Lewis, when hurt, would alternately tie up his opponent and fire back with some stout stuff of his own as he did against Mercer.

The argument can be made that Lewis would be the one ahead in the scoring by round 5; but I don't think so. Tony Tucker was as big as Lewis; but was younger and throwing more punches in his early rounds against Mike...and that Mike was younger and less experienced than the one we're using. Lewis would be biding his time, trying to gradually get Mike to fight his fight, rather than fighting Mikes. By the fifth, Mike's head movement would only be sporadic and Lewis would begin catching him coming in. Lewis wouldn't be able to throw any pitty-pat punches with Mike though, or he could be countered as he was earlier. He'd have to get Mike's respect and land something solid and odds are sometime between rounds 3 and 5, one of those big shots of Lewis's would connect on Mike's head, which would cause him to show a little more caution....and set the pace for the remainder of the bout.

The middle-rounds would consist of Lewis getting back into the bout with solid jabs and right hands and uppercuts and then tying Mike up by the time he got inside. After a while though, Lewis would lose his focus and begin pushing his jab instead of snapping it, inviting an overhand right counter....which Mike would throw and land, stunning Lennox. Once Mike smells blood, his work-rate always increased automatically because he knew this was a chance to end things. However, he wouldn't end matters; but he would win the round.

This pattern would repeat over the final rounds with Mike working Lewis's body on the inside and occassionaly ripping a shot upstairs; but rarely landing more than one at time because of Lewis's defensive expertise.

In the end, Mike would win a close decision in their initial encounter....more or less on sheer aggression. Odds are Lennox would have stunned Mike on occassion somewhere in the middlerounds; but this Mike didn't quit...and would come back even stronger in the next round to get his respect back. So, it would be an exciting affari in which neithr of the the participants would hit the canvas, IMHO. Final score, probably something like Mike by two to three poins.


Now, to keep it short...the rematch and the rubber-match would both go to Lewis based on his problem-solving skills. All of th mistakes he made in the first match, he would have corrected by the rematch, which would enable him to win either a pretty broad UD or by a late round stoppage. The third fight would resemble the second; but with Mike probably getting stopped or stopped sooner, depending upon how the second fight ended.


That's how I see it, anyway. Sorry 'bout the length.