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We do not see Great coaches and trainers anymore.
Fighters roll with whoever and just rely on their own ability and nous. A fighter like Tyson Fury could probably fight and win at the highest level, without a trainer, for example. Have the times changed? Seems to be back in the day the trainers and coaches were highly valued. You had highly sought after trainers with a stable of top fighters, trainers nurturing fighters from the Amateurs to the pinnacle of the Pros, etc. Top quality, renowned names. These days we have Jay Deas, Ben Davison, people like Shane McGuigan who decide they wanna become a trainer and within 6 months they're in World title fights, etc. Have fighters evolved, or trainers declined?
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Some interesting points. I think that during the development stage on a fighters career, they will benefit massively from a good Coach. Take Tyson Fury for example. He was a good prospect that was massively flawed and not fighting to his strengths until Peter Fury got him and developed him over the course of several years. Peter really did an outstanding job with Tyson, and he's doing a good job with Hughie, Hughie just lacks some of the gifts that Tyson possesses.
Once a fighter has got to world/elite level, what they need and who they need depends on the individual. When Fury needed to get in shame and stay motivated, he brought in Ben Davison, the right man for the job. Once it got to the point that Tyson no longer needed full time specialised help in that regard (nutrition/fitness, etc) He went to a man who could develop his offence to elite level, to match the rest of his game - Sugar Hill. Who I expect him to stay with for the remainder of his career.
I thought it was best to use one fighter as an example here. I'd like to see some other people list some more individual examples of what has worked/hasn't worked, etc. It's an interesting one, as the Coach doesn't get into the ring and win the fight, but they certainly play a part, some a lot more so than others, but at the same time, I've always felt that some Coaches who just land on a good fighter and contribute very little, but take a huge amount of credit are overhyped. -
Yes but stop using Fury as an example for any norm, he is an exception to every rule.
Times changing have nothing to do with Fury, he is an outlier, a phenom born every thousand years.
Yes we have less trainer talent, much boxing knowledge has died off and been lost. It's one of the main reasons boxing isn't progressing its regression. Less skilled fighters on average, less active professionals and amateurs, a smaller talent pool leads to a lower bar. Whenever you hear someone make the lazy (and recent ) take of "all.other sports have advanced, boxing too", ignore those people or educate them. Its not the case and its ignorant to suggest it.
We, who are part of what is really a sub culture at this point, are the minority. Most people DKSAB. That can't be overstated. Bookies, analysts, writers, bloggers, 90% of them really dont have a clue. They rely on peer input, history, trend analysis, and odds. Of course their takes are largely inaccurate or foolish but the casual masses run with it and try to spin material into fact. It's easy to disagree with rankings, ratings and popular takes when you speak from your own heart and knowledge and you don't let exterior influences affect you. My eye test trumps all, for me. Hasn't failed me much and I can defend any statement i make with clarity. Many media heads cannot if challenged. They don't know the meaning of the euphemisms they throw around.
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I disagree. It seems as though trainers now days just spread themselves alot thinner. Instead of 3-4 fighters to dial in, they have 25.
What I think is going down is the quality of referees and judges. It doesn't mean crap if you have a great fighter/trainer if you have crap judges and refs, thats what we should be talking about.Comment
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I understand it feels as though there are less great trainers and coaches but I’m not sure how we prove that.
On the other end, we the fans want to see greatness in people before their time. We crave greatness that we express that ****. Our measuring stick is only stuck on the present instead of over a long period of time.Comment
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To be honest I think in general trainers and their roles in boxing have been exaggerated through all of boxing history.
ancients praise their trainers, bare knucklers praise their trainers, boxers praise their trainers, but, do these trainers actually consistently crank out champions or are they good at hitching a ride?
Probably the best trainer was Figg due to juxtaposition alone. In the 1720s if you went and trained with Figg he'd teach you how to bust up untrained bums and you'd be champion. You hardest fight possible is another Figg student. Simple as.
Once that juxta is dead and boxing is more commonplace there are no trainers who always get the best out of their fighters. There are only trainers who have some great names mixed in with the relatively normal careers.
Maybe they do have an impact, but, I too am confident if I had a stable of 30 men at least one of those ****s would be a champion.
Measuring only those who do well is imo a mistake. If you **** up 20 Big Macs and ****ing nail number 21 that makes you a great burger flipper? No son, but if **** up twenty careers and nail one you sure as **** is a great trainer.
Look at how much credit Sugar gets for Tyson alone in one fight.
Johnathon Banks
Anthony Barnes
Cornelius Bundrage
Ruslan Chagaev
Anthony Dirrell
Domonique Dolton
Clarence Dubose
Tyson Fury (2020-)
John Jackson (Detroit)
Aaron Pryor Jr.
Dmitriy Salita
Adonis Stevenson (2012-2019)
Leandre White
Apti Davtaev
Vladimir Shishkin
The **** happened with most this rabble?
Clarence Dubose just took an L from a 1-4
We just forget that noise though because Tyson Fury knocked the piss outta Wilder doe.
What excuse does he have? They can't all be good? Ain't that part of agreeing to train a mug?
Show me a trainer who never ****s up and I'll call him great. Losses are losses, no big deal, I'm not asking for trainers who make Rocky's just a trainer with no Clarences.Comment
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I think elite boxers need to have 2 or 3 good trainers to call on depending on the opponent. Some trainers have the seek and destroy style where others are slicker and more elusive type trainers. In the end it will make a fighter more well rounded. I understand brand loyalty but at some point training seems to turn stale and you dont reap the benefits like you should.Comment
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Nice post March, I always appreciate your input, as your knowledge of the past in Boxing puts us all to shame. Ironically, I don't think Ben Davison has ever been in the losing corner of a pro fight. He has trained some palookas (Tom Little, Ashley Sexton), but Little won all 3 fights he had with Davison in the corner, and Sexton never had a fight while with him. His better known fighters are the Gypsy King, Billy Joe Saunders and recently Josh Taylor. Interesting, as your point is a valid one.Comment
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thanks bud, there are actually a few here who know a ton of history, I'm just the loudest one of us.
Maybe Ben's got a real legacy ahead of him.
There are spots in history where men shine. I just sometimes feel like for the most part most of training has been exaggerated.
Between Figg and Davison I'd say the greatest is Mendoza and he's much closer to the Figg era than Fury era.
1780s, Mendoza is the 5'5" HW champion. He gets cheated out of his title and though loses it'd unfair to say his self-training failed him.
His star pupil is Bill Richmond. He too is cheated.
Richmond trains Tom Molyneaux, who himself only suffers dubious losses.
To this day people favor hit and don't be hit back, points, boxing as the "art" of the sport. That's his glory, and that's a pretty damn big deal I probably should have mentioned. It's not really fair to say Mendoza's training or even his lineage failed more often than not. It reshaped the sport. Mayweather is much more Mendoza than he is Figg, for sure.
But, you have Figg, who is a "slaughterer", ye olde for puncher.
Then in 60 years, 60, Mendoza comes and teaches us boxing.
Then in about 30 more years Barclay would take Cribb on and teach him steak and beer are bad fighting diets. Cribb was unbeaten for like a decade because he could go and the only other fellas around who ate right were Mendoza's crew.
Then you get this guy Bill Fuller, he was around the Molyneaux-Cribb era too when he was a fighter, about twenty years after he fights Tom he starts training mugs. Fuller is the guy you have to thank for fighters using sparring as training instead of just a means to test a kid out or teach a non-combative student.
That's uh, that's four dudes. The basic **** is laid down by Figg. Hit your heavybag, **** like that. Mendoza brought the art. Barclay brought the diet. Fuller brought sparring. Basic format for gloved boxing comes around the mid-late 1800s right as the Marquis is written. What I mean to say is everything that makes gloved boxing doable in the modern era was set up in bare knuckle right before gloved boxing kicks off. The last piece was sparring for training. Once that's settled in and commonplace we're off to gloved championships.
So, I mean, yeah, definitely are great trainers that deserve praise and respect but I don't think Freddy and guys like him, Sugar, etc, are even close and it is guys like that, that get exaggerated.
From 686BC to 2020 I'd have a hard time making a list of 10 great trainers. Could do 10 good trainers, but actually great at their job? I don't think we've seen many.
686 BC - 393 AD = Diagoras' daughters. That's it. There is no other legend of any other great trainers. That's a long time for only one legend.
One for Pygmachia
Four for London Prize Ring
What do we have? Goldman? Tommy Ryan fought out of a crouch too. So did LaMotta. Goldman had Rock, not Rock had Goldman. Anyone who doesn't suck at their job would have gone the whole way with Marciano.
OG Steward? It's best to not talk **** about the guy who brought Lennox and Wlad to the top, he done good, but, did he do anything Primo didn't? Not really, they're just more talented fellas than Primo. Good at picking talent, good enough to make sure they achieve their goals, don't think he's on that Mendoza level though. Nothing in Wlad's training is standard for HWs today. Nothing in Lennox's is either.
Manny, I think, is probably the best of my lifetime, and sadly I just don't think he's good enough to compare to the fighters themselves. I give them more credit then him and so, not on that Mendoza level. Or Figg, or Fuller, or Barclay, or even Dia's Daughter...I forgot her name, it is recorded though.
Same with Sugar. If I'm ****ing with you I'll claim that US training is what made Tyson so good, but, in an honest convo I know Tyson Fury is what makes Tyson so good. I saw that mug get up too you know what I mean.
The talent is the fighters most the time. Their trainers get exaggerated because their talented fighters do so well. Imo.Comment
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Even a lot of top trainers from the past had their fair share of average and poor fighters.
Theres so many other factors too. You have big name trainers that got who were already established but have never trained fighters from the ground up and made them into a world champion. And then you have some place like the ingle gym who have had quite a few world champions that they literally had from childhood, right through to the amateur system, into professional and world champion. Maybe you could say producing three or four world champions from childhood is more impressive than having 15 world champions that you got when they were already established fighters. It really just depends on what we consider great trainers.
And then you have fighters that can pretty much make a trainer. Tyson Fury had never really had a proper established trainer until Sugar Hill. Not that sugar was considered one of the lead trainers but you had worked with good names like Adonis Stevenson. With Fury It’s always been friends and family. People talk about Peter Fury has been an excellent trainer but in reality he never trained Tyson very early on in his pro career, his late uncle Hughie did, and Peter never had any previous experience and hasn’t really set the world alight with other fighters. The likelihood is Tyson Fury would’ve still been excellent regardless of who trained him. some people just have it.
Even Virgil Hunter, he might’ve trained Ward from a young age but has he ever truly made other fighters look much better? Not really. That’s not to disrespect hunters achievement with Ward, but Ward might have been just as exceptional with other trainers.Comment
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