Best of Generation ≠ Greatest Legacy

[GrandpaBernard]

How does this work.

Boxing world, meaning fighters and trainers, think they’re two different boxers. They rather be the best guy but have the record of legacy dude

Best of his era by definition has the greatest record in his time yes?

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Greatest record in regards to what fighters they beat and when and how they beat them.

[QueensburyRules]

How does this work.

Boxing world, meaning fighters and trainers, think they’re two different boxers. They rather be the best guy but have the record of legacy dude

Best of his era by definition has the greatest record in his time yes?

- -U wake up feeling mushy?

[koolkc107]

Well, I think folks conflate greatness, accomplishments, and ability.

You can do something that no one else will ever duplicate but that doesn't make you the best ever.

No one else is ever going to successfully go from light flyweight to jr middleweight, winning major titles in 6 different weightclasses. And it's doubtful anyone will ever win titles in 4 different decades (or maybe even 5). It's also doubtful anyone will fight in 26 title fights without ever losing.

Those are accomplishments. They indicate greatness. But, what they don't do is tell you who had the greatest ability. They don't tell you who was objectively the best.

Doc Ellis was a great pitcher who once threw a no hitter while high out of his mind on LSD.

That feat will never, ever, ever, be duplicated. However, that doesn't make Doc Ellis the best pitcher ever. When compared head to head to other pitchers, Doc Ellis comes up short.

Therefore, I would submit that, if you have come up short head to head against contemporaries you are being compared to, by definition your legacy cannot and will not be greater than theirs.

We don't consider Foreman or Frazier greater than Ali. Why? Because though all three have great accomplishments, head to head Ali came out on top.

Manny Pacquiao has that same problem with Floyd Mayweather and Juan Manuel Marquez.

You might feel what Manny did may never be duplicated, but head to head, Floyd and Juan came out on top against Manny and therefore will have greater boxing legacies.

They were better than Pacquiao.

Period.

[Bunch Pag]

Horse for courses..

Depends how you see things. Some like seeing a zero or near perfect record regardless of achievements in that time..

Others prefer seeing what a boxer has achieved overall in his career....

The arguments are how each scenarios have panned out..

[GrandpaBernard]

Horse for courses..

Depends how you see things. Some like seeing a zero or near perfect record regardless of achievements in that time..

Others prefer seeing what a boxer has achieved overall in his career....

The arguments are how each scenarios have panned out..

I’m huge Floyd fan and his undefeated record isn’t the first thing that comes to mind.

What made him the best and so great:

Dominance. Only two truly close fights in a career where he faced great fighters and very good opponents. He made it easy with his skills

Peerless. Conquered all he fought. In the two rematches the opponents won 3 to 4 rounds each

Floyd beat guys in style. Him being undefeated is the cherry on top not the cake.

[Bunch Pag]

I’m huge Floyd fan and his undefeated record isn’t the first thing that comes to mind.

What made him the best and so great:

Dominance. Only two truly close fights in a career where he faced great fighters and very good opponents. He made it easy with his skills

Peerless. Conquered all he fought. In the two rematches the opponents won 3 to 4 rounds each

Floyd beat guys in style. Him being undefeated is the cherry on top not the cake.

That's what I also loved about Floyd..

I also loved Pacman..

I personally don't know why we can't appreciate them both instead of one or the other..

[hugh grant]

Keith thurman said we will never see Pac s like again.

https://*************/watch?v=NhYfh4t2MfY

[ruedboy]

Well, I think folks conflate greatness, accomplishments, and ability.

You can do something that no one else will ever duplicate but that doesn't make you the best ever.

No one else is ever going to successfully go from light flyweight to jr middleweight, winning major titles in 6 different weightclasses. And it's doubtful anyone will ever win titles in 4 different decades (or maybe even 5). It's also doubtful anyone will fight in 26 title fights without ever losing.

Those are accomplishments. They indicate greatness. But, what they don't do is tell you who had the greatest ability. They don't tell you who was objectively the best.

Doc Ellis was a great pitcher who once threw a no hitter while high out of his mind on LSD.

That feat will never, ever, ever, be duplicated. However, that doesn't make Doc Ellis the best pitcher ever. When compared head to head to other pitchers, Doc Ellis comes up short.

Therefore, I would submit that, if you have come up short head to head against contemporaries you are being compared to, by definition your legacy cannot and will not be greater than theirs.

We don't consider Foreman or Frazier greater than Ali. Why? Because though all three have great accomplishments, head to head Ali came out on top.

Manny Pacquiao has that same problem with Floyd Mayweather and Juan Manuel Marquez.

You might feel what Manny did may never be duplicated, but head to head, Floyd and Juan came out on top against Manny and therefore will have greater boxing legacies.

They were better than Pacquiao.

Period.

The record shows Pac was 2-1-1 vs JMM (due to a math error by 1 judge, Pac was robbed of a victory in their first fight) so Pac comes out on top, unless you're ignoring the official decision and going on your opinion. Unfortunately if you do that, it opens up a gigantic can of worms as everybody goes by their own opinion of who won the fights.

[koolkc107]

The record shows Pac was 2-1-1 vs JMM (due to a math error by 1 judge, Pac was robbed of a victory in their first fight) so Pac comes out on top, unless you're ignoring the official decision and going on your opinion. Unfortunately if you do that, it opens up a gigantic can of worms as everybody goes by their own opinion of who won the fights.

It doesn't have to be about me ignoring records.

The two wins by Pac were like the draw. All three of those fights could have went either way.

The only definitive win of all 4 fights belongs to Marquez. I don't need to change results to make that argument.

JMM came out ahead in the series despite the record.