Comments Thread For: Should Amateur Records Count in Evaluating Greatness?

[Happy Lora]

No it shouldn't

Personally it annoys me when guys do more than one Olympic cycle unless they are REALLY young at their first one like 17 or something then maybe.

But a lot of these Eastern euros they stay there until they are 30 with grey bollock hairs, it's ridiculous.

I went into some basic detail about this in another thread of yours, to which you never responded. Not sure if you saw it or not. I'll copy and paste what I wrote there.

We're privileged that Loma turned pro at all. Plenty of eastern Europeans in similar positions didn't and wouldn't. Same with Cubans, albeit for a different reason. Many, if not most, of the greatest amateurs never turn pro.

There's not nearly as much incentive. Boxers who compete and win for countries like Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, etc. (some of the best amateur boxing countries alongside Cuba) are nationwide heroes that their governments take very good care of afterward. Plus, an Olympic medal carries a lot more weight than a pro belt, at least in the eyes of their countrymen.

Oleg Saitov and Alexey Tischenko are just two relatively recent examples who never turned pro. Tischenko won 2 golds in 2 divisions just like Loma. Saitov won 2 golds and 1 bronze (one of only 5 men to win medals at 3 different Olympics).

They beat the best of the best and saw no need to pursue an overseas professional career with all of its politics. Can't really blame them.

[hitmanjosh]

This is a great article, no matter

Who or what you think the outcome and evidence of these events can’t be changed. All I can say it’s a real confirmation of just how great Sugar Ray Robinson truly was.

[Happy Lora]

Who or what you think the outcome and evidence of these events can’t be changed. All I can say it’s a real confirmation of just how great Sugar Ray Robinson truly was.

Not really sure I understand your post.

[soul_survivor]

I rate amateur experience.

Largely because I'm an amateur myself. I've been boxing for 13 years, you'll never convince me everything I know goes out the window if I "step up" in competition. I've sparred pros and amateurs both and while there are stark differences in both, fighting is fighting and boxing is boxing, the only thing that stands between an amateur like me and a professional fighter is the decision to get licensed.

I'd put money on guys with extensive and elite amateur careers like Rigo and Lomachenko over guys with less than 20 amateur fights who turn pro and don't have many pro fights. There are always exceptions, but amateur boxing is like the G league for the NBA or the minors for MLB. You can skip that step, but it won't do you any favors.

Now, when talking about a large professional body of work, amateur experience shouldn't be relevant anymore, but it isn't meaningless either.

Not sure Hauser ever states that amateur experience is "meaningless" but there is a clear difference, amateur are...well amateurs. Lots of the fighters in amateur weight divisions are in their late teens or early 20s. Amateurs barely fight 3 rounds, have bigger gloves and for a large chunk of the last 3 decades, wore headgear.

Yes amateur background lends to a solid pro career but it shouldnt mean much when ranking great PROFESSIONAL fighters.

[GhostofDempsey]

Amateur is a bunch of crap. Mark Breland is standing next to tha champ, the 'Bronze-Bomber' Deontay Wilder : one won Gold with a amateur record of 110-1. The other, a Bronze ; despite the lack of experience and proper training with a pitiful record of 21-5. Who is greater?



Here is another great example : The UK's Audley Harrison won Gold at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but what happened when he faced rising HW prospect Deontay 'Bronze-Bomber' Wilder? Ask Anthony Joshua, ( another gold-medalist, who got dominated by failed Olympic Hopeful Andy Ruiz ), Anthony watched fellow British Gold-Medalist get pummeled by the 25-1 2008 Beijing Bronze medalist, in person at ringside, and decided to duck Deontay ever since.

Wilder is in no way greater than Breland. Wilder is an overrated goony-bird. Took him 39 fights to finally step up. Got worked over in his last two outings.

Three men at the pinnacle... doesn't include Loma... author is a clown.

I believe Hauser referred to them as being at the pinnacle because they each won three gold medals. Not as a snub of Loma or Rigo.

[Pigeons]

Can't hurt in Lomachenko's case. 2 Olympic golds, 2 World golds, 1 World silver.

[LoadedWraps]

Not sure Hauser ever states that amateur experience is "meaningless" but there is a clear difference, amateur are...well amateurs. Lots of the fighters in amateur weight divisions are in their late teens or early 20s. Amateurs barely fight 3 rounds, have bigger gloves and for a large chunk of the last 3 decades, wore headgear.

Yes amateur background lends to a solid pro career but it shouldnt mean much when ranking great PROFESSIONAL fighters.

I don't disagree.

[dan_cov]

Who was made to look 'amateurs' when N'Dam and the likes tried their hand vs these supposed young kids at the olympics? Did the pro's win a single fight? Not sure they did.

The amateurs is the real sweet science, the art of hitting & not getting hit. The pro's is more about delivery and maximising power.

Nearly every ATG from Ali to Floyd, SRR, SRL, Foreman, Holyfield, RJJ, Oscar were all top amateurs. Its no coincidence.
The only country who has consistently produced many world class pros without the amateur schooling off the top of my head is Mexico, respect.

People always point to Audley - who was a farcry from a great amateur despite capturing gold, he was just in the right place at the right time. His amateur record is rather average. - No different to when an average pro catches lightening in a bottle.
Him and a few others if anything are sort of exceptions to the rule;
There are many top amateurs that have gone on to do a lot as pros, far more so than have failed.

I think its more these great amateurs are held to ridiculous standards.

Look at all the top fighters today I don't think any but Canelo wasn't a very accomplished amateur.

[dan_cov]

To be a great amateur you're likely going to be at the age that most pro's are starting to slip, they're then expected with 300 or so fights worth of wear and tear and all the damage sustained in training and day-to-day life to go on to have an ATG career in the pro ranks also.

A world class amateur can have great success in the pro's and often do, you won't see a world class pro having any great success in the amateurs where it relies more on athleticism & angles.

Rigondeaux, Gamboa, Lara were all #1, severely ducked, multiple time long reigning world champions & 2/3 at least are also looked at like they achieved practically nothing. They were like 30 with 300-400 fights under their belt at the highest level before they even turned pro, its probably quite remarkable them still having enough in the tank to achieve as much as they did especially with such promotional issues.

[Real King Kong]

If they were fighting 12 rounds in the ams, maybe. It’s a completely different ball game.