Does anyone come close to matching Ali's 10 toughest fights?

[Boxing_1013]

He was in some great fights. The problem I have is that we know that Liston 2 was rigged, he lost to Frazier, and very well could have lost to Norton 3x. That is 5-4-1 in those 10 bouts.
Lewis beat prime Tua, Klit, Ruddock, Bruno, Holyfield 2x, Mercer, Morrison, Tony Tucker, blasted out Golota, Grant, Botha, Rahman in revenge match...

I think Ali's showing in those fights is important too...you bring up a good point...which for me is to say that when a great, even ATG, faces other great fighters in their primes...it will largely be a mixed bag in those fight...averaging about .500 probably.

Personally I don't see the comparison skill-wise between the guys I mentioned for Ali and those you mentioned for Lewis...3-5 of those fights may fit the bill...but not 10-11 fights like Ali had.

I do think that dominating against solid pros is as good of a win generally as a less impressive win over a faded former great...but the difficulty of facing 10+ guys all in their primes, at HW no less, I mean I see why many call him the GOAT...I can't think of anyone else who faced that level of top competition...unfortunately he probably felt the affects of that for years to come.

[Boxing_1013]

All you can do is be at all the beasts of your day. Holyfield fought everyone as did lewis.

This is true...all you can really do is be the man of your era and then let the chips fall where they may

Oscar De La Hoya and Shane Mosley

I'll have to look into those 2 guys again...can't quite recall their resumes in full...BHop was a guy who came to mind for me as well but I didn't go through his resume again in detail either

Sorry, Lewis didn`t fight Foreman, Bowe, Holmes, Moorer.

So, no, Lennox didn`t fight all the best.

Also fair...no fights with Bowe and Holmes hurts him in a way...even if it was Bowe's fault

Nobody else has ever become HW champ, cleaned out the division and beat everyone, then come back after a long layoff to do it all over again 10 years later. The only other HW that even comes close is Foreman, and he was pretty choosy in both his runs.

To my mind I agree

Lennox is top 10 hw, but nowhere near Ali.

Norton was a great fighter himself, so having 3 close fights with him is nothing wrong.

I don`t know If you even know Ali also beat Patterson, Chuvalo, Lyle, Shavers, Quarry, Folley, Bonavena and so on.

Good post

To be a great champion you have to face every possible contender in your division, and beat them 'Or duel with them'. That is what Muhammad Ali did, that is what Lennox Lewis did and even Wladimir Kiltschko.

The only championship holder doing that today is Anthony Joshua 'This is why I don't rate Tyson Fury as a champion, he is the number 1 heavyweight right now but? As soon as he going gets tough, he wants to get out of he game'.

Wlad did...but it was a pretty weak era by all accounts...AJ, he hasn't even fought who many feel are the top 2 guys yet lol...and Lennox was great, but as some have said, he had some misses too.

[Mikeh333]

He was in some great fights. The problem I have is that we know that Liston 2 was rigged, he lost to Frazier, and very well could have lost to Norton 3x.

Good points. I think Ali probably benefited from numerous fixed fights during the course of his career. Not that Ali was aware of this, but they were too many fights, like the ones against Norton, and both of the Liston fights, that seemed su****ious or that went against him.

Ali was a truly great fighter. But maybe not even the best heavyweight of his era. Well never know.

[xxlefthookxx]

I think Ali's showing in those fights is important too...you bring up a good point...which for me is to say that when a great, even ATG, faces other great fighters in their primes...it will largely be a mixed bag in those fight...averaging about .500 probably.

Personally I don't see the comparison skill-wise between the guys I mentioned for Ali and those you mentioned for Lewis...3-5 of those fights may fit the bill...but not 10-11 fights like Ali had.

I do think that dominating against solid pros is as good of a win generally as a less impressive win over a faded former great...but the difficulty of facing 10+ guys all in their primes, at HW no less, I mean I see why many call him the GOAT...I can't think of anyone else who faced that level of top competition...unfortunately he probably felt the affects of that for years to come.

If Ali wasn't at least a very good fighter, he would not have been able to beat so many other good fighters. I believe LL fought a more diverse crop of fighters (tall, boxing Klit, short squat Tua, all around athletic Holyfield), and I would venture to say that many of those he beat would have been favored over Ali's opponents. That is keeping in mind that LL and his opponents were generally much larger than Ali and the gang. "Big" George was only 220 lbs when he fought his ****** game plan vs Ali.

[mlac]

No, off the top of my head i cant think of anyone. And dont forget Ali literally used sparring as a way to prepare for the punishment to come in the ring, he was a heavybag for some huge punchers that Ali let pound on him as he lay on the ropes, you are talking about taking punishment day after day from the likes of:

Holmes
Witherspoon
Dokes
Jimmy ellis
Tony tubbs
Eddie mustafa muhammad

No wonder he started showing signs of brain damage in his mid to late 30s.

Btw i just finished the Jonothan Eig book about Ali, and i cant recommend it enough.

[Boxing_1013]

If Ali wasn't at least a very good fighter, he would not have been able to beat so many other good fighters. I believe LL fought a more diverse crop of fighters (tall, boxing Klit, short squat Tua, all around athletic Holyfield), and I would venture to say that many of those he beat would have been favored over Ali's opponents. That is keeping in mind that LL and his opponents were generally much larger than Ali and the gang. "Big" George was only 220 lbs when he fought his ****** game plan vs Ali.

This is very fair...I generally am not one to over-rate past eras...athletes tend to get bigger and stronger over time...hard to compare eras in most sports...especially boxing, even at HW

[xxlefthookxx]

[QUOTE=Boxing_1013;20571715]This is true...all you can really do is be the man of your era and then let the chips fall where they may



I'll have to look into those 2 guys again...can't quite recall their resumes in full...BHop was a guy who came to mind for me as well but I didn't go through his resume again in detail either

DLH fought a modern day great list. Genaro Hernandez, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Rafael Ruelas, Oba Carr, Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey, Pernell Whitaker, past prime JCC, Shane x 2, then Bernard. Annoying as a promoter but great fighter.

[IronDanHamza]

Probably not to be honest, top of my head.

Certainly not at Heavyweight that’s for sure.

Someone like Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Harry Greb you could probably argue.

To beat Liston and Foreman when they were Champion is an extremely impressive feat alone. Let alone the rest.

[Boxing_1013]

Good points. I think Ali probably benefited from numerous fixed fights during the course of his career. Not that Ali was aware of this, but they were too many fights, like the ones against Norton, and both of the Liston fights, that seemed su****ious or that went against him.

Ali was a truly great fighter. But maybe not even the best heavyweight of his era. Well never know.

As much as anything I respect his ability to take on great fighters routinely on (seemingly) level terms

[Mikeh333]

As much as anything I respect his ability to take on great fighters routinely on (seemingly) level terms

Yes, Ali never ducked anybody. And he won his fights late in his career with an iron chin, and wearing down his opponent. Very different from how he won fights early in his career. And that is an incredibly rare thing in an athlete.

If both Liston fights were fixed (good chance they were), is it possible that Sonny Liston was the best heavyweight of the era, and one of the greatest of all time?